upbeat music
[motorcycle engine revs]
Woo!
Let's go!
Ahh!
Woo!
[chatter and laughter]
[woman] Whoo!
Ahh!
If you ever change your mind
[laughter]
[man VO] Would you continue to make me the happiest person in
the world?
[laughter]
[cheers and applause]
mellow ambient music
I broke it.
[laughs] I broke it.
Yeah.
'You Just Don't Understand.'
[Ping] Is that what the title says?
[Will] That's the title, yeah.
You should take that home and read it.
[Will] No, I should read the book 'I Just Don't Understand.'
[both chuckle]
I just don't understand.
I just-- I just don't understand.
Shut up.
I just-- ah, I just...
Shut up.
I don't understand.
Just shut up.
[both laugh]
We met within the context of an open relationship at a time in
our lives where, you know, he, um-- I was exploring things and
he was exploring different things,
and we kind of met.
Generally, what kind of things?
Um, a more... open sex life.
More sexually, sexually.
Yeah.
We were both exploring sexually.
Mm-hm.
[Ping] So he and I are, separately,
serial monogamists, right?
From one relationship to another to another,
and I think for both of us, we realized sex doesn't have to
mean one person for the rest of your life,
it can happen within the confines of an
emotionally-committed relationship.
And I think that's what attracted both of us to each
other, right?
And created that bond.
Did you bring other people into your shared sex life?
[Ping] Yes, mm-hm.
[Will] Yeah.
[Ping] Yeah.
And how did that work for the two of you?
Yeah, I think at the time, like,
I always looked at it as, like, we were kind of our,
like, exploration buddies, you know?
And that's kind of where the relationship flourished from
there.
And did that stop at some point?
So boundaries became a huge issue, and we did--
[Orna] So who wanted what kind of boundary?
I think when we first got together,
the boundaries were that we only dated other people together as a
couple.
And then, you know, just scheduling issues became
difficult, whatever, and so she started dating someone on her
own.
So then, we decided to try that for a while.
[Ping] But then, his boundaries were "Okay,
you can't go on long walks with them,
you can't cuddle, you can't do this,
you can't do that--"
Well, that's going way back though.
[Orna] Hold on, hold on.
Meaning you can't do things that are--
I can't do "monogamous" relationship things with other
people, and--
You can do pure sexual...?
[Ping] Just pure sex, show up for the sex--
Got it.
Put your clothes on, and come home.
[Orna] Got it.
And for me, that's not sexy to me.
I don't operate, you know, like that.
So he had a problem with how I was going to be intimate with
someone else.
But then, when we were looking for other people to date,
he was having a hard time, because most guys will respond
to me, but for guys, it's much more difficult.
So sometimes, I would help him write the notes to the
prospects, right?
And it worked.
But I think when he started seeing other people,
there was that switch that flipped,
and all a sudden, "Oh!
Oh, I can do this with them.
Oh, I can do that with them.
Oh, that's okay, this is okay, so it's a free-for-all now."
So he would disappear for three to four hours,
not check in, no text, nothing.
And I think at that time, it wasn't so much I was jealous,
it was just, hello?
We're in a relationship where we have other people,
so you need to be more mindful of who your primary is.
This is someone who told me I can't do X,
Y, and Z, and all of a sudden, he's out doing X,
Y, and Z.
[Orna] You were upset.
Yeah.
The deeper issue is really--
Feeling left out.
I feel fucking left out, and that's not what this
relationship is about.
That's not what--
What's-- you're smiling because?
Because the irony is, like...
she's saying she feels left out.
It's always people trying to include her.
Like...
I love how you don't take any accountability for how you make
me feel.
It's not about them, okay?
What would you want Will to say?
What would be a way that he could convey to you that he is
taking some responsibility?
What would it sound like?
I guess I would love it if he says,
"You know what, you're more important to me than all these
other people."
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Is there a way that you can communicate to her that she is
important?
That she is actually the most important?
I feel like anytime I tell her how I feel about her,
she just says, "No, you don't.
That's not how you feel."
Or...
[sighs]
So part of you feels defeated.
Yeah.
I try to reassure her with words,
she either calls it bullshit or says,
"No, you don't," you know?
Or I, you know, try to show her with small actions and things,
and she says that's not enough or that's not good enough or...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
This is what causes me probably the most stress and anxiety in
this relationship is just trying to always figure out how to make
her happy and always failing at that.
[Orna] Yeah.
And, yeah, I feel like I've racked my brain endlessly and
have lost countless hours of sleep over it and just...
trying to think of things to do and always coming up short.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Well...
what are you hearing, Ping?
Honestly?
Just a whole lot of whining.
[whispering] "Bullshit," yeah.
That's what I hear a lot too.
Yeah, yeah.
Because, you know, he makes it seem like I'm this shrew running
around -- "Pay attention to me, pay attention to me,
I need-- I need this, I need that" -- and I don't.
Wait, I'm a little, um, concerned about what's happening
right now.
Are you thinking for a second about what Will is saying to
you?
About his experience?
Yes.
And your response to that is that is a whole lot of...
[Ping] Whining.
Whining.
It's hard to know what to do...
in my seat with that response.
Because if I can't rely on the two of you of having some
concern for each other, I don't know what we're doing here.
But this growing resentment that I have for him,
it's not from any one incident, it's from all of these incidents
where I see him choosing himself,
choosing his needs, putting his needs-- putting someone else's
needs in front of mine.
So you know what?
Fuck you.
All I hear is whining.
I don't fucking care.
I am the person that he can come home to,
he can get comfortable, sit around and fart and be himself.
But he won't do that with other people.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
You know?
He puts on his best self for other people,
not for me.
[sighs]
"Virginia Wolf" by The Procussions
She gets mad when I don't say enough
She mad when I'm around, mad I'm outta town
She tellin' me I ain't doin' much
And my job is only barely a job
I'm like a child in my sandbox playin' house
Oblivious to a fault, content being ignored
I'm absent, a bore, and on top of it all
Obnoxious, and I don't bring her flowers anymore
Thinkin' maybe I should just leave you...
[sighs] Oof.
So we're just-- we talk about everything?
Everything.
Okay.
It's a waste if we don't for us.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
[Molly VO] Josh and I are at such an interesting place in our
marriage.
We've kind of...
done everything to each other, or experienced everything in a
marriage or relationship that you could to try and...
break it up.
Uh-huh.
[chuckles]
[Molly] And we are still here.
Okay.
I feel like we are at a place
where we're kind of done doing
all of those things.
[Orna] But all of those things you're--
Like all of the things we could do to somehow--
[Orna] To test?
Test, yes, that's the perfect word.
To test.
So we're here, but we did all that testing,
so there's a lot of, like...
Scar tissue.
[Molly] So much scar tissue.
Mm-hm.
I mean, we can...
[chuckles]
Yeah.
[Orna] Do you wanna jump in, Josh?
No, I'm just feeling so nervous,
I just feel a little nervous.
[Orna] Nervous sitting here?
Yeah.
But maybe say more specifically nervous about...
I think you're afraid of me, A.
And B, I think what you were just about to say.
I think I'm afraid of...
I think I get scared by what the truth might...
[Orna] Be.
Be, and cause to happen.
-You know? -Mm-hm.
-Like, the fall-- -Consequences.
The consequence.
[Orna] How do you mean that?
Both of us have, um...
had infidelities, and...
I think there's a lot of, like, anger still.
[Josh] Yeah.
[Orna] Say more about that.
I think I'm waiting for Josh to openly discuss the pain--
whatever emotions he has around it for himself.
I think I have felt like...
"Okay, well, now that stuff is in our past,
so we're not supposed to talk about it anymore,"
and so I think that's--
Because?
[Josh] [sighs]
You know, honestly, I think it's my worry about getting her
upset.
Mm-hm.
I don't like that answer.
I-- I don't know.
So there's, like, a cover-up operation going on.
[Molly] Mm.
Oh, yeah.
-[Molly] Mm. -[Orna] I don't know.
Oh, yeah, then I'm like, "Well, yeah, I wanna say the thing
that's gonna make her feel better."
-[Orna] Right. -[Molly] Ugh.
"Is it the tru-- I don't know if it's the truth.
-Maybe it is. -[Orna] Right, it becomes then
difficult to know what's going on, yeah.
But if it's going to make her feel better,
then maybe I should just say that thing."
[Molly] No!
I don't want to do this anymore.
Right, right.
I don't wanna make him feel like he's being masked or like
he can't speak his truth.
Right.
[Molly] [sighs]
I would like to know, finally, how angry he is.
Mm-hm.
But there's also a part of me that worries if he actually
allows himself to say what he really thinks that...
it might be something that would make him actually really look
and realize that he doesn't want to be married to me.
[voice cracking] I just wanna heal this.
I just wanna heal this.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
soft ambient music
[Orna VO] I think people have way more capacity to bear
difficult truths than they trust.
But there's this overall feeling of fear...
[Virginia] Hm.
Of what's gonna happen to them
if they really engage with treatment.
Yeah.
But I think part of the fear is the fear of attack of your
partner.
You know, "What's she gonna say?
What's she gonna do?"
[Orna VO] The truth wants to come out,
and then there's a fear that it's gonna destroy something.
[Virginia VO] Right.
If you could upset me, then you could hurt me.
I don't wanna be hurt.
[Orna VO] It forces you to confront yourself and what you
think you know about yourself, and then it forces you to
confront your partner.
You have made me question everything that you do.
I don't know what else there is to say!
like...
I shouldn't have to deal with this.
[Orna VO] There's no way that you can hide from it.
I knew this was all gonna come out and that obviously,
I'm gonna be the asshole.
I don't know what you want from me.
[Orna VO] So it takes a whole lot of courage
just to walk into the room.
It smells so nice in here.
[Orna VO] Tell me about yourselves.
[India VO] I'm originally from Georgia.
I'm a Broadway performer.
[Orna] What kind of performer?
A dancer.
I've been in a Broadway show for eight years now.
Wow.
[India] Yeah.
What's the show?
[India] 'The Lion King.'
'The Lion King,' cool.
[India] Yeah, yeah.
The month after I got in, I met him.
We dated for four years, and that was a whirlwind of drama.
[laughs]
I-- I feel like there's definitely underlining issues we
struggle with.
Mm-hm.
And...
sometimes, it shouldn't be as stressful as it...
It doesn't have to be as stressful or as hard.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that as African-Americans,
I feel like we come into relationships with a lot of...
trauma that we're not necessarily willing to
acknowledge.
Mm-hm.
And there has to be a lot of, uh,
self-searching, if you will, in order to...
you know, realize how it affects your relationship.
Yeah.
Yeah, like I'm from an immigrant family;
I came here as an immigrant child.
Describe the background.
[Dale] I was born in Guyana.
Mm-hm.
And we moved to Antigua when we were about-- when I was about
four years old.
Um, and then moved up here when I was about 14,
15.
You know, coming from a different country,
you know, this rude awakening of New York City and,
you know, being different and kids always made fun of me.
Um..
you know, so I--
The accent, too.
Yeah, my accent as well, yeah.
Well, you don't have it anymore, but--
[laughs]
Yeah, she always says that I changed myself because...
most of the times, my accent is not recognizable anymore.
Right.
[India] Yeah, just about his entire family still has their,
uh, what I would call their "native tongue,"
their accent.
But he doesn't.
And I found that very interesting.
It is interesting.
So yeah, with my accent, you know,
I started to train myself how to speak.
How to speak so that kids will find you more like them.
Yeah, like I would-- you know, as a kid,
I would talk to myself in the mirror and build my own
confidence.
But, you know--
That's a big thing with this relationship.
He has done a really good job of building his self-confidence.
I always joke and say, like, he loves him some him.
Mm-hm.
[India] But, um, he makes me feel like an insecure or,
um, small person sometimes, you know,
when he makes comments like "I don't know if you're gonna be a
hands on mom."
Mm-hm.
[India] I feel judged.
Mm-hm.
[India] And that's when I get angry and aggressive.
And once I'm at that level, um...
I just-- I can't pull myself back.
I just-- and I say really hurtful things.
How does it sound between the two of you?
Um...
We-- we had a-- we just had a child,
uh, whose 11 months.
Well, she's gonna be 11 months on Friday.
[India] Yeah.
And, uh...
India said to me that, uh...
I think we were in an argument one time and she said,
"Oh, that's why I didn't wanna have a baby with you."
Mm-hm, I did.
And...
I did say that.
[sniffles] I'm sorry.
Okay, you're upset and you said something that you didn't mean.
Um, but...
you cannot convince her that that's not what she meant.
So where do I go with this?
What do I do?
See here's the tough part, because...
he says that, right here right now,
that he's trying to convince me that that's not what I,
um, believed, um...
but that's how I felt.
Mm-hm.
[India] Because Dale has another child;
he's been married before.
And so he already knew what to do here;
he's already done this.
So I was feeling criticized, and this is why I was afraid to,
you know, to parent with him.
I just always-- I feel...
He just makes me feel inadequate in everything.
Mm-hm.
upbeat funky music
[chuckles]
Hello.
Hi.
Nice to meet you, I'm Orna.
-[Yaya] Hi, Orna. -Hi, I'm Cyndy.
-I'm Yaya. -[Orna] Cyndy, and?
-Yaya. -[Orna] Yaya.
Okay.
Where do we begin?
[both laugh]
I don't know.
Uh, we've got a lot going on.
We've been married eight years.
[Yaya] And we have two children.
[Cyn] Yeah, we have two kids.
But right now, we're at a state where,
uh, we haven't been intimate for a while.
Mm-hm.
I think it's almost a year now.
Yeah.
So I just look at it as, you know,
we have three options.
One is that we just split up, and that's the worst case
scenario.
Open marriage would be the second route;
she doesn't want that.
So then the third case would be that we,
you know, reconnect, and that's what we're hoping for.
Reconnect physically.
[Cyn] Physically, everything.
I think it just is--
[Yaya] Yeah, kind of, like, rebuild everything.
You know, find our way back to each other in a sense.
Like when we first met, I didn't think it was gonna get to
this point.
What do you mean?
I didn't think that I was gonna marry you.
She just thought she was gonna go around galavanting.
I thought I was just gonna be a hoe.
That's literally-- I thought I was just gonna go out there and
just party.
And then, I ended up meeting her,
and I was like, "Oh, she's great.
And she's, like-- she fits, like,
the ideal type of-- you know, this is what a good wife would
look like.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Cyn] And then, we both finished nursing school.
Then, it got more serious.
You know, the next step was to get married,
so we got married.
The next step after that came the children.
And then, I hit 40 and I just reflected back and I was like,
"Oh, shit, this is where I'm at.
Like, I want...
I want to see what else is out there."
But she sees a marriage as-- or a healthy marriage as being just
monogamous.
I think a healthy marriage can be both.
Um, but she doesn't feel that way.
I just feel like...
[sighs] to be intimate with someone,
it takes a lot.
[voice cracking] So for her just to be like,
"Oh, I can be with you, I can be with you,
I can be with you," it's like...
where is the intimacy?
Where's the, like, real connection?
Like, you're just gonna go and basically spread your legs
anywhere you can?
And that's okay?
You know?
You're hurt by that.
[Cyn] That's why I always say, "Maybe it's me,
maybe I'm the issue."
Because if you look at our marriage externally,
it's great.
Like, everybody sees her like she's...
an angel.
[chuckles]
Like, she's so motherly, she just-- she just engulfs
everything and kind of just is able to take care of everyone.
But something about it is affecting--
[Cyn] Us, yeah. [Yaya] Us, yeah.
Desire.
[Cyn] Yeah.
I'm at the point where it's like I'm not attracted
to you right now.
That's a difficult thing to say,
but there's probably more to say than just that.
Like, I'm just not attracted to her.
I don't know if there's such a thing as "just not attracted."
There's something to say here.
I don't know.
I feel like I'm like...
[sighs]
Like, how do you say this?
Those sleeping bags when you go camping, right?
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Okay, I'm just trying to get out the sleeping bag.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
That's exactly how it feels like like.
Like, it's nice, it's comfy, it keeps me warm,
I can sleep in it, you know, it-- it's safe.
[Orna] Yeah.
I see, too safe, too safe.
But I just want to get out.
Yaya, um...
how are you feeling?
I feel hurt, I feel...
[Orna] Hurt...
Lost, I don't know.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Lost like you don't know what to do about all of this?
Well, that's why the two of you are here.
"Two Months" by John The Blind
You and I know I can't be what you want me to be
What you need me to be
Whether I am there or not there
You and I know I can't be where you want me to go
Where you need me to go
Whether it is fair or not fair
Two months got me all stressed out
Two months got me tripping'
Do I pull us up or pull us down?
I wish I could just listen
Two months got me all stressed out
Two months got me trippin'
Do I pull us up or pull us down?
I wish I could just listen
To your heartbeat sound
Me and you could figure it out
I've been cruel to your heartbeat sound
Me and you could figure it out
I've been cruel
You and I know I can't see what you want me to see
What you need me to see
Whether it's right there or not there
Oh, you and I know I can't take what you want me to hold
When you need it the most
Whether it is fair or not fair
Two months got me all stressed out
Two months got me trippin'
Do I pull us up or pull us down?
I wish I could just listen
Two months got me all stressed out
Two months got me trippin'
Do I pull us up or pull us down?...