[shuffling]
It stresses me out when you get stressed out.
It's not your responsibility.
It's not your job.
I'm just saying.
It ungrounds me, but it's not fair for me to place all of my
being grounded on you.
That's what-- okay, okay, okay.
[laughs]
instrumental music
[Molly] After last week, the next day I was in such a
dark place.
Tell, tell, what kind of thoughts and?
Um...
I mean, that dead inside comment.
It's more like, like pulling the veil.
Like, and just being like, oh yeah, that's...
That all is there.
Mm-hm.
Yeah, I think we-- I think both of us really had just...
like...
put that away.
Like, we handled that well.
-All right. -Mm-hm.
I think that's how we've handled a lot of things I'm realizing.
We stuff it in a box together.
Yes. [chuckles]
And that's like our dealing with it,
and then it goes up on the shelf or something like that.
[Orna] So let's hear some more.
Like, let's open some of these.
[Molly] Um, so when I was in high school,
I had a relationship with a girl.
Mm-hm.
[Molly] I had never been in love.
I had not had really any romantic relationships,
and I would say that this was my first one.
It was just, like, the whole world was open and it was just a
magical experience.
Two years ago, one year ago.
Year and a half at this point.
I discovered that she was living very close to us
in New York City.
So we went out to dinner.
We had not seen or spoken to each other...
[Orna] Since high school?
-Yes. -Mm-hm.
[Molly] It's kind of like she came into my life again when I
was also having, like, a midlife crisis.
I-- I remember, like,
a year ago, I started to feel like,
who am I?
Like, what am I more than just a mother?
A wife?
Like, is this my life?
Is this all there is?
Like, you know, just those kinds of questions.
And being around her was just like being 17 again.
Exactly.
So it turned back into a physical thing.
Um...
What about it made you feel 17 again?
I felt so alive around her last year.
Feeling so, like,
young again and free.
And before she emerged,
Molly was saying to me that she
was feeling very trapped...
very confined by...
the parameters of our marriage.
What was going on, both for you and between the two of you?
[Molly] A yoga student that I had had an emotional
relationship with, he had come to New York and I had seen him
and nothing was going on but what it did was it recreated
this thing where Josh started to feel very
untrusting and asking me
all the time and...
Asking things like?
[Molly] Are you talking to him?
And that was starting to make me feel,
like, crazy.
And I was just desperate to like get out somewhere else and
laugh.
And then here comes this woman that made me feel alive.
What was going on for you at the time,
when you were pre-occupied with that worry?
Um, so the woman was like a flash in the pan.
It was this very like kind of quick thing that happened.
Two or three months it lasted.
This other sort of longterm emotional connection that she
had to this former student of hers,
it lasted kind of a long time.
And I kept saying please don't even talk to him.
And you-- you refused.
You refused to do that.
[Orna] Hold on, Molly I'm gonna ask you not to speak because I
need to be able to understand.
Okay.
Keep going.
Yeah, I mean, I would say, like, "Please don't."
"Okay, I won't."
And then three months later
this person would come back up again.
That's a year ago.
I have to trust her.
But I don't know.
I just felt like where she was, she was feeling so confined,
so, like, trapped.
I just was so worried that if I...
made some kind of ultimatum or
I held on too tightly, that she would leave.
She would leave.
So, I thought, "I'm just gonna ride this out.
I'm gonna be here.
I'm gonna be present.
I'm gonna try to be as present as I can."
I don't know.
I just wanted to hold on.
But in the meantime, it just created more...
anger.
Mm-hm.
[Molly] I do think that a lot of this
would be different if he...
had been able to...
express himself,
whether it's happy or sad
or angry or...
insecure.
I just want him to talk to me.
instrumental music
[Orna VO] Josh is unable to really be present with her.
I think he feels internally knotted up about not having
the guts to be more aggressive about her transgressions.
Right.
[Orna] And I think she wants a certain kind of presence that I
think is quite foreign to him.
And she just finds it with someone else
if he's not givng it to her.
[Virginia] Yeah.
[Orna] It's unclear if she's like punishing him by doing
that, or trying to wake him up from a state of kind of
disassociation or disconnection.
But she's repeatedly failing.
So what I'm trying to do is help her contain herself.
Yeah, long enough for...
So she can let him actually talk about their relationship.
But in his own language...
Be an other. Be a true other.
Yes.
[Virginia VO] I'm reminded of Cyn and Yaya, and how Yaya is
not owning her own personhood.
[Orna VO] Right, I'm feeling like I need to get Yaya out of
the seemingly disassociated state she's in.
Like, she really needs to come in to the frame.
[Virginia VO] Yeah, and come out of her shell.
[Orna VO] Mm-hm.
How are you two?
[Yaya] We had like a moment last week.
Tell me about that.
The way that the conversation started was more of--
she started off saying, "Oh, you know, last week,
we ended in like a good, light tone."
I don't know if it was just me,
maybe because it was my birthday week,
and I was just like, you know,
it just felt lighter to me.
Like, I know we have stuff that we still have to work through.
I know she has her own stuff.
I have my own stuff.
We have our stuff as a unit, and I was like,
I'm not brushing anything off.
I'm just telling you the atmosphere,
the energy just felt light.
And then that's when she started saying,
like, "You're just brushing everything under the rug."
And I'm like, but did I say that?
But Cyn, that's your fear or your...
That we're brushing everything under the rug and we're not
gonna take care of it.
Like, I just, I wanna just take care of it.
But can you tell me some more about the fear?
The fear is that Yaya will neglect or
not pay attention to...
Maybe not pay attention to my feelings?
-[Orna] Mm-hm. -Or, I...
You know, I was always very...
I questioned our relationship.
And you know that.
From the beginning I'd be like, ehh...
And I would tell her.
Maybe that's something we should work on.
But her response is like,
maybe that's one of your moods again...
So you're not managing to get enough of a reaction.
I never get a reaction from her.
Like, I try to push her buttons and it just doesn't work.
But I'm wondering if these little comments...
Is trying to find her to get-- get her to react?
Yeah, is trying to elicit more of a reaction,
or, you know, you, um...
I feel like I'm trying to sabotage what we've got
sometimes.
I feel like I'm a self-sabotager.
Maybe you're pissed off about something.
I mean, I could be.
I just don't know what it is I'm so mad about.
Let's think about it also just in terms of ways in which things
happen to you as a child
that were indeed ignored.
Oh, yeah.
Still very angry.
Mm-hm.
[Cyn] I'm angry at my uncle.
I'm angry at my parents.
But there's something about that that's getting played out
between the two of you.
[Cyn] Us, yeah. I just...
In the sense that you're, on some level,
experiencing Yaya as
not picking up on something,
not responding.
I'm wondering if you're mad that Yaya is not--
-Paying attention. -[Orna] Mm-hm.
Probably, yeah.
Yaya, do you-- I mean....
do you recognize in yourself that there's some way
that you're muting your response to Cyn?
[Yaya] Yeah, I know when I get upset,
I just shut down.
But in my mind I'm like angry.
[Orna] So when something hurts you you go towards shutdown.
Yeah.
But I think that's just the easiest way for me to cope,
because, like, when you get mad, you are explosive.
You go for the jugular.
And if I know she's like that, like,
I find things to keep me busy so I don't kind of don't have to
interact as much, kind of like letting the bomb be defused,
and then we can talk.
Mm-hm.
But I think you're not allowing yourself to get upset enough
for Cyn to feel like she's actually having an impact.
Yeah, but I...
It's not that I don't pick up on her cues.
I don't react to her cues, and it goes back to me not being
able to fully express how I was feeling as a child,
and express my emotions without there being repercussions for
doing so.
So I've had how many years of just
boxing it in here and...
dealing with it internally.
Mm-hm.
But I also know that she is struggling right now.
Like, she's hurting.
So, yeah, it makes me upset, but...
You gotta show it.
You're just so composed.
Something about you not showing it,
even though it's beautiful and gracious,
it's also not necessarily the best
to what's happening between the two of you.
Mm.
[Orna] There's a way that you're keeping yourself somewhat
removed from what Cyn is repeatedly saying to you.
Yeah.
instrumental music
[fireworks exploding]
[India] On Saturday we went to the park and met with some
friends and were playing couples games.
Yeah.
And, um...
one question we got stumped on.
Or more so, he got stumped on.
The question said, "How do you know
that your partner has forgiven you?"
Mm-hm.
[India] And I answered the question very easily,
just, "Oh, well, you know, you just
come back around, you talk to me again.
We laugh again."
He couldn't answer the question.
[Dale] Yeah, I couldn't answer.
That's a really interesting question.
-Yeah. -Yeah.
Say something about...
what it--
your thought process.
Yeah, so I initially thought, okay,
I don't actually know that India ever forgives me for anything,
because every time there's a-- there's a fight,
it's the fight plus...
whatever else I'm always, like, fighting against.
[Orna] Everything that has accumulated.
Yeah, everything that has accumulated.
[Orna] Yeah.
There's so much already stacked against me--
It doesn't even matter what you're saying now.
[Dale] Yeah, it doesn't matter.
And it makes me feel very defeated at times.
[Orna] Yeah.
I'm sort of inclined to ask each of you what was
forgiveness in your childhood homes?
Like, how did people get over transgressions?
[India] So in my childhood, you know,
we did something bad, you got a punishment or you got a
whooping.
That was the end of it.
Um...
we have dog-out, drag-on fights,
you just say whatever you want to say,
destroy someone's feelings,
and cook them breakfast in the morning.
-That's love. -I see.
But that does leave you with a lot of anger that you have to
sit with because nothing was repaired.
-[India] Mm-hm. -Any thoughts on that?
I mean...
you know, I see that India handles me this way sometimes.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
But, like, I heard India say, you know,
"I don't want to be viewed as the angry black woman,"
but a lot of the emotion that I get is anger.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
A lot of times.
Well, let's keep thinking about this,
but I-- I want to ask you...
about your experience family-wise with, like,
forgiveness?
[Dale] Yeah, so, like, my dad.
I will say my dad is a great dad.
He would always give us lectures.
And even after we got punished, he would explain to us exactly
why.
So there was always a level of, you know, forgiveness.
[Orna] But was there forgiveness or was there righteousness?
I mean, explaining why you're punishing someone is not
necessarily forgiveness.
Maybe it was righteousness because my dad had a very rough
relationship with my grandfather.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
He was...
He was basically the black sheep of the family.
In what way?
[Dale] Well, my grandfather was a pastor,
a well renowned pastor, and, um...
my dad was kind of,
you know, set up with these expectations that he was going
to be like my grandfather.
And he was running around, smoking weed,
and doing all the things that a pastor's son shouldn't do.
And your mom?
My mom put up with some really horrific things from my dad,
and, uh...
[Orna] Horrific?
Like, physical abuse, yeah.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And...
was loyal to him...
and stayed loyal to him through it all.
And, uh, anything that seemed confrontational,
she would go the other way.
Maybe that's where I get it from, but...
[Orna] Maybe that's where you get
like an extreme sensitivity to conflict?
[Dale] Yeah.
Yeah.
That it really rattles you if there's conflict.
Yeah...
I think it really rattles me too because
I'm afraid that maybe I can be like my dad.
[Orna] Yeah.
And I don't wanna...
I would never want to inflict that on anyone.
[Orna] Yeah.
Because I hated the way he treated my mom.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
So whenever I see-- whenever I see conflict,
I immediately remove myself.
[Orna] Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
instrumental music
[Orna VO] To help a couple, I've found that the most basic
ingredient is some capacity to care for each other.
That if the other person is suffering, it will matter
because sometimes all they want to do is score the
next point and win, win, win.
[woman] Sometimes he thinks I have an attitude towards him...
I think he has an attitude towards me.
And it's just...
constantly....
that's where we clash.
Wait, did you blame me for that?
-I wasn't even there. -No!
No, I-- I didn't blame you for that.
I'm a human being, I make mistakes...
but I will not apologize forever.
He took it so personally, and he was just like, "Ugh!
Why do you need to come at me like that?"
"Fuck you!"
Fuck you for saying that.
My response to him after that was like,
I feel like no matter what I do,
[fading out] how much I give, how...
-[Orna VO] With Ping and Will... -[Virginia VO] Yes.
[Orna VO] I mean, there's something of a classic dynamic,
which is like the more she aggresses and goes after him,
the more he retreats.
[Virginia VO] Yeah.
[Orna VO] And the more he retreats,
the more she feels like she needs to go find him.
[Virginia VO] Yes.
[Orna] For me, that's where it gets complicated.
Yeah.
[Orna] Because there's a really strong
sadomasochistic...
[Virginia] Wow.
...dynamic going on.
So she gets like really mad and really big and controlling
in her voice.
[Virginia VO] Yes.
[Orna] And he kind of gets small and withdrawn,
and she gets mean, and then his way of responding is by
even further kind of withdrawing his...
sexual attraction from her.
[Virginia] Uh-huh.
[Orna] Anyway but in terms of that dynamic between them,
I'm finding that my regular toolbox
is not totally relevant.
Uh huh.
[Orna VO] So I have to listen in as to when the timing is right
to address it.
Will, how are you doing right now?
[mumbling] I don't know...
I feel hopeless.
[Orna] Hopeless.
[Will] We've been to so many therapists,
and it's just going through the same thing again and again.
And I don't think any progress is being made.
You know, I try to look at myself and I try to
change things and...
I try to do things differently...
but our sex life is absent.
Our communication is pretty much nil.
I don't feel like I can tell her anything or say anything,
but I think it has to do with the fight we had
just a few days ago.
You know, I just asked her if...
you know, if she was okay if I went to play golf
with my friend...
and somehow that turned into,
"I always choose other people over her."
It's just, like, a moment of realization for me.
-[Orna] Of? -It's like...
all I did was ask to go play golf,
and in your mind,
I'm choosing everything over you.
Like, how do you...
reason with that?
How do you have any kind of logical conversation about that?
That's just golf.
There's so many deeper issues I want to talk about
that I can't.
Where are you?
[Ping] I'm listening to him and...
She's thinking I'm a crybaby is what she's thinking.
I'm trying not to come up with a snide remark.
[Orna] But you have an impulse to do that?
Yeah.
I do in the sense that, you know,
in response to what he's saying,
how do I work with someone who's
always a victim?
Okay, can I tell my part of that story?
[Will] How would you respond if all the times,
you know, went off about how you feel about me leaving to Korea,
if I was just like, "Oh, stop playing the victim."
Like, how the fuck would that make you feel?
I feel like there's a lot of he said/she said, right?
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And there's a lot, "Okay, well, this is his perception.
This is his, um, view of what happened."
And then I have my view of what happened.
But what's missing is the...
Some kind of theory that will help you understand what's the
dynamic.
[Ping] Exactly, yeah.
So one of the things we've talked about is you're already
deeply stuck in the groove where you'll start with an assault.
Right.
Now, we know already that underneath the assault, you're--
there's all sorts of feelings of hurt,
-of vulnerability, betrayal-- -[Ping] Yeah, correct.
That it's hard for you to sit with,
so you launch an assault.
[Ping] Yeah.
And your response to that is to enter some state of helplessness
and trying to comply,
trying to appease,
but really you're retreating.
You're just trying to minimize damage.
Mm-hm.
Which leaves you further abandoned,
and what do you know how to do when you feel abandoned?
Attack.
[Ping] And fight, yeah.
And what happens when you attack?
You feel helpless...
retreat.
So that's your dance at the moment.
And you're exhausted by it.
[sighs] I've been exhausted.
But something's keeping you together.
[Ping] I don't know what.
This is what I keep digging for.
This is what I keep thinking about.
So, we can do all sorts of things.
You can tell me that you're tired of it,
you want to break up.
Hm.
We can try to understand how
each of you got so deep
into this particular position.
I'd want to hear something about your family histories.
I feel like, you know, everyone always wants to talk
about my family.
I don't have the best relationship with them,
granted, but I felt like that is something I've
dealt with earlier on, like, in my early 20s.
[Orna] Right, but just so you know,
I'm not imagining doing reparative work on your
relationship with your family.
Right.
What I'm imagining is that maybe each of you can understand
a little bit why you're so stuck in a particular position.
I mean, you're too good at this role for it not to be
well-rehearsed.
Is that of interest to you?
instrumental music
Okay, so where do we start?