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[Orna] If I had to summarize how you've described your
experience with Ping,
like, the core of what's disturbing to you...
is that you feel helpless...
and you feel like there's nothing you can do to make
a difference. You can't get through at all.
And you've kind of given up.
Mm-hm.
[Orna] So when early in your life did you feel this way?
With whom?
What age?
Tell me.
[Will] My aunt had said to me once,
"I never understood why your mother was so awful to you."
Mm-hm.
I was kind of like, what do you mean?
[chuckles] And, like...
I guess I never perceived it as awful.
It just was the air you were breathing.
[Will] Yeah, friends and girlfriends who've met her as
adults, they're always-- the first thing when we leave is,
like, "What's up with your mom?"
Like, "What's wrong with her?"
What is wrong with her?
They've, uh, used words such as
"cold-hearted," um...
"cunt," um, [chuckles], um...
"bitch," uh...
[Orna] What was her story?
I think she's unhappy, generally, in her life,
but again, we've never been close so I don't really know
what's going on in her life.
You don't know because...
[Will] Not from lack of trying.
I remember trying to have conversations with her,
trying to reach out to her, you know,
she always seemed uncomfortable with it and,
you know, changed the subject or avoided it or...
So, not allowing you any attempt to get close to her
or to get to know her.
Yeah, I guess.
And I guess when I was like 27 or 28,
I remember I was on the phone with her for some reason and
just listening to her talk brought me down so much.
I just like felt this negative energy coming through the
phone, and like, weighing down my good spirits.
Weighing down me.
And, yeah, it just like snapped in my brain.
It was just like...
This is one of last negative influences I have to get out
of my life.
So does it sound to you like that ties into what we
described about your experience with Ping?
I guess maybe it feels different because my mom
wasn't as... [chuckles]
combative as Ping.
[Orna] But what sounds familiar to me...
is your...
experience of your partner as...
unavailable, unreachable,
and no matter what efforts you're making,
you can't reach her.
[Will] I mean I see the parallel.
But then I guess my question is like well,
what else is there to do?
Because I feel like I've tried everything else.
At least everything else I could think of.
Well, if the place you go is "no matter what I do,"
it's not gonna make a difference.
You're not gonna have a lot of...
creative energy to figure out how
to find each other.
You're just gonna be stuck in that helpless place.
Yeah, yeah.
[Orna] Do you have any thoughts about this, Ping?
[Ping] [sighs] You know, he talks about his childhood, but
I'm like, "Your mom didn't like you and she didn't talk
to you, but your mom didn't get so frustrated she tried to
hang you out a fucking window when you were six."
So...
What do you mean?
Well, my entire torso was out the window.
I mean, she had me, my feet were still on the floor,
but she had me out the window.
-That sounds terrifying. -[Ping] Yeah.
My mom was frustrated.
She was here, she was in her mid-20s,
and she had to leave her family behind,
so it was just us, you know?
-My family. -Us being?
Her, my dad, and me and my two sisters.
So we got hit a lot, and I got hit a lot.
Do you remember how you felt?
I felt angry.
I didn't feel sad. I felt angry.
You know what it felt like?
-It felt like a power struggle. -[Orna] Mm-hm.
That she was always trying to get me to yield,
to acquiesce.
[Orna] Yeah, but she's telling you that...
That she's the one in power.
I'm not the one in power.
-[Orna] Yeah, yeah. -Whereas it only served to--
[Orna] So I understand, the anger of being,
I guess, dehumanized in that way.
Making you feel completely unsafe.
Utterly.
Yeah, yeah.
It was, you know, like you said,
the air that we breathe.
I've always fought.
There was no flight.
Flight was never an option for me.
I fought.
And trying to get away from that and be in a relationship,
-it's hard. -Mm-hm.
So we have to stop...
but I-- I want you to...
keep these histories in mind when you're interacting with
each other.
What do we do with it?
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[Orna VO] Right now, don't do anything.
Do less.
Understand that these histories are in operation.
They're fueling your experiences with each other.
Just listen in an attempt to actually understand.
[Cynthia] What was it about his mother?
I mean, he kept saying things like,
"Well, my old girlfriends have said,"
you know, "what's up with your mom?"
[Orna] The mother was this traumatizing entity,
and it' like the other person is not fully...
-[Orna] 3D for him. -[all] Yeah.
It's a thing out there that causes pain,
but it's not experienced by him as real,
which is why Ping is getting louder and louder.
When he starts crying and then she says,
"I just hear whining."
[Orna] Right, but there's something about his tears
that doesn't seem...
connected.
It's like he's holding some kind of other thing that he's
doing with his tears.
[Stephen] But whose tears are they, right?
Are they his tears, or are they her tears, and then she sees
her tears in him, and then she attacks herself in him.
It's like a hall of mirrors.
They're allowing each other to see
what they are afraid of, or hate in themselves, in the other.
[all] Yeah.
[Orna VO] All right, let's talk about India and Dale.
They are both very careful.
He's super careful with his aggression,
and so panicky about conflict.
For both of them,
there are major questions of identity.
And all sorts of surprising insecurity...
that keep getting passed between them.
[Nuar] I think that it's interesting,
just this idea of oneself
versus the way you're being seen by the other...
because she doesn't know how Dale actually sees her.
[Orna VO] Yeah.
[Dale] So, India was at home for...
-A year and a half. -Mm-hm.
And she had a lot of time to spend with our daughter, Demi.
And now that she's back at work,
things have changed a little bit.
She's gone every evening.
So now I have, basically, between 11 and five
to try and get everything I need to do.
So we talked about maybe her
stepping up a little bit in the morning, so this way--
We actually-- we didn't...
Yeah.
You went on and were saying, "Well,
you don't get up in the morning.
And she's always late."
And I get home at midnight, so yeah,
naturally I am tired, and I don't want to get up early
because I prepare her breakfast,
lunch, and dinner.
You know, I have fed her from my body for months, you know?
I'm not debating whether or not...
you do a good job.
[India] Yes, you are saying that.
And this is your energy across the board.
To criticize me.
He gives himself so much credit because he was working
during the pandemic, yet he didn't give any credit to the
fact that I was pregnant, I had a baby,
I was adjusting to motherhood, and I still tapped into my
resources to help us stay afloat financially.
But you're saying that in the way Dale narrates
things he doesn't acknowledge that.
That's what's bothersome to you.
Yeah, when he gets upset, he's like,
"Oh, well, I'm the one here getting up in the morning
getting Demi together for school
and feeding her breakfast.
Or, "I'm the one--"
As opposed to...
Try to give an alternative narration that wouldn't be
excluding.
As opposed to not saying "I, I,
I, I did, I'm doing the most."
[Orna] But let's say Dale wants to congratulate himself,
the two of you.
-The two of us would be nice. -So how would it sound?
Well, we really survived this pandemic together.
I can't believe we made it, but we did, and I'm so grateful.
But I say these things to you, babe.
[groans]
[Orna] Maybe not enough.
Okay, maybe, maybe not enough.
This might be a moment to just be aware of a different
way of speaking that will address a certain...
upset.
[India] Yeah, because all I can hear him say is "I'm gone.
I've left him all alone to parent our child."
That's what I internalize.
[Dale] Why?
You're gone six days out of the week which is an excessive
amount of working.
So you heard that as some kind of critique.
Yeah, that was negative.
[Dale] Yeah, but I'm not saying it to take a dig.
I'm just saying it...
Hold on a second.
How are you feeling about being gone?
Annoyed.
I'm feeling like he thinks
I'm abandoning my role as a mom.
Whoa.
[Orna] I'm not asking you how you're feeling between the two
of you.
How are you feeling about being gone?
I feel bad about being gone.
Mm-hm, tell me.
I knew before I even got pregnant that
when kids are inserted into the equation,
this schedule was going to be a problem.
Like, I am in a place where
I'm really contemplating giving this up.
So, I feel a little torn because I love, I love what I do.
Mm-hm.
But the schedule is grueling,
and it's just not natural for a family person.
Mm-hm.
And that is starting to weigh heavily on me,
absolutely.
And every time I hear him say "You're gone six days a week,"
it's just a grind, and a grind, and a grind.
It almost puts this unnecessary pressure on me
to-- to make a decision.
You gonna work, or you gonna be home?
I do think in this case, it sounds to me like what's
happening is what you're hearing in Dale's voice
is really your own inner conflict.
Mm.
I don't really hear it coming from Dale.
[India] And I don't...
I'm very hard on myself.
-[Orna] You are. -I'm very hard on myself.
[Orna] You are.
reggae music
You never really loved me, baby
You never knew I really cared
You never really loved me, baby
You never knew I really cared
You just used my love
Oh, oh, baby
[Molly] We've been bickering a little.
-[Josh] A little bit. -[Molly] A little bit.
Uh-huh... How does the bickering go?
I mean...
-[laughs] -I get, like...
[Orna] It sounds like you're saying something, Josh.
Oh...
I don't bicker.
I'm not a bickerer.
I can't believe I'm using this word, "bick--"
We've never used this word "bickering."
[laughs]
Okay, I'm gonna use an example.
I like to go to bed with the kitchen completely clean.
I don't like dishes in the sink, I like...
You have to wake up in the morning and have it be clean.
I want to wake up in the morning and have it be clean,
and this morning there were dishes in the sink,
and I yell about, you know,
"Why are the dishes here?"
And, "We have to clean this up!"
And, "I have told you that I don't want
the dishes in the sink!"
And then Josh will say, "Okay, I'll take care of it."
But that to me is still not--
Like, every single time it happens, I don't want to hear,
"I'll take care of it."
I just-- I don't want it to happen.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Can I just ask you what your...
thoughts are on this?
When she gets upset about the fact that I didn't do them
last night, I think, "Yeah, but I did them the night before, and
the night before that," and for the last 20 years.
You know, I've been doing the dishes.
So...
yeah, what I want to say is, like...
"Lay off." [chuckles]
But what you then say is...
"Honey, I'll take care of it.
I'll take care of that."
[Orna] "I'll take care of it."
"I'll do that."
But then I think to myself, like,
-"This is about something else." -Mm-hm.
I would love if he would stop me in that moment and say,
"Honey, it seems like something else is going on.
Do you want to talk about it?"
Because that right there makes me feel like he's
interested in me.
Does that make sense?
[Orna] Yeah, it made me think that you're identified with
the dishes, that you feel neglected.
The dishes are like you.
Yeah...
yeah, I don't...
[Orna] But you're like, "Look at me,
I've been sitting here waiting...
and nobody's paying attention."
Mm-hm.
But is it possible that
it's not that you're not seen, or even valued,
but there's some kind of...
negotiation about who has the say...
about when and what?
[Molly] Meaning that, like, I...
want things to go in my--
on my timing?
That you want things on your timing, and
Josh, in a way, by not doing it, is saying,
"I don't want to do it according to your schedule.
I've got my own schedule."
-But you're... -I wish he would say that--
I wish he would say that to me.
Well, he's saying it by inaction.
-[chuckles] -[Orna] It is a form of saying.
See, but to me that's, like,
a cowardly way of saying it.
Like, why can't you just say it?
What would happen if I said,
"I don't want to do it on your timeframe?"
Okay.
I'd think to myself, "You can't get pissed about this.
He said it to you."
That's how I would feel.
[Orna] What are you thinking?
Do you believe that?
No, I don't believe it.
Like, I hear her.
But how can you not believe something that you've never--
This is what's so frustrating.
You've never tried it, so how do you know?
[Orna] Molly, I want to say something.
Just so you know, generally, I am a verbal person, and I like
people talking and saying
what they want to say.
But there is some legitimacy to talking via action.
And in a way, by asking Josh to say it to you in your
language, it's kind of a repeat of the same dynamic...
which is your timeframe, your language--
I understand.
There are different ways that people communicate and
sometimes -- I can't believe I'm even saying this --
but sometimes the nonverbal is pretty useful.
So, let's shift a little bit,
and see what might be going on
through this scene of the dishes.
What's going on underneath all of this is that my husband
is very angry and hurt by me,
and I'm aware that I'm being
neglected because he's hurt and angry.
Do you want to, I mean, just talk about that?
About?
Anger...your anger at Molly.
I mean, I'm really uncomfortable with anger.
I feel uncomfortable feeling it.
I don't know, the words that come to mind are like
"ugly" and "weak."
Like I don't have respect for people that get angry with
other people.
Do you know that you're angry at Molly?
-Do you feel it? -Yeah.
[Orna] Yeah, you can recognize it when it's
happening.
I can recognize it when it's happening.
[Molly] I think he knows me well enough to know what I'm
asking what I need,
and it's almost like it's...
by withholding it...
that is a way to...
show his anger.
Yeah.
[Molly] And it's like, by his lashing out,
I lash out, also, by continuing to lose control, or
act out in the way that I do.
It's like a way to test if the anger is there or--
still or not.
[Orna] So probing, poking at you, she's trying to test out
is your anger going to come out?
Is it still there?
Or is your compassion/interest gonna...
show up?
Yeah.
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[Cyn] We had a fight this weekend.
[Orna] Tell me.
[Yaya] She was going to meet up with her gay boys.
And then she's getting ready, and I had not done, like, the
laundry because I was taking care of the kids,
and then she was like, "You didn't do the laundry?
I have no underwear."
Because I would've been able to do it.
No, no.
You would've been able to do it when?
Well, it doesn't matter.
Because you were out the whole day Saturday.
Yeah, but I could've put it to wash in the morning and by
the time it's getting ready to go...
Baby, but you notice the piles of sorted laundry to be
done, right?
-But that's what you do. -Yeah.
It's a little off, what you're describing.
I knew I was just being a jerk saying all that stuff
about the laundry.
But you're still saying it.
Yeah, I know.
[Orna] So what's going on?
I mean, I'm surprised.
You're going out and having fun for the whole day, and then
you're complaining that your laundry's not done for you.
So...how's that for you?
Well, I'm not a housekeeper.
Like, I'm not there to just clean,
wash clothes and take care of the kids,
-you know? -Right.
You could've said "no," and I would've came home.
[Orna] Wait, wait...keep talking.
[Yaya] In my mind I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
Like, I felt like it was a tantrum, like--
Yeah, but how are you feeling to be in that position?
Like I was upset that she even reacted like that.
Try to describe the feelings.
I...
[Orna] Try to find your feelings there.
That's what I'm trying...
Can I ask you?
I'll give you like a menu of possible feelings, and choose
whichever one.
Did you feel disappointed?
Did you feel abandoned?
Did you feel taken advantage of?
Did you feel furious?
Did you feel humiliated?
If I had to choose one, it'd be, like, disappointed.
And if you had to choose three?
Disappointed, abandoned, and sad.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
You know?
Those are like the feelings you have towards mommy.
-[Yaya] No. -What do you mean?
She's saying that those are like the feelings I have
towards my mom.
No, no, no.
I have a lot of resentment toward my mother.
Why, because she abandoned you?
[Yaya] Not abandoned...
Wait. She abandoned and...
[Cyn] She abandoned her.
She would leave her and her sister and her brother, and she
would go do her own thing, and she would go party.
Mm-hm.
Well, we lived like in an apartment building,
so random people would have parties on the weekends, and
drink, do drugs, whatever.
Sometimes they had the party at our apartment,
but then my sister and I would lock ourselves in our room.
I remember one time, it was when we first came here,
I had issues, and I would wet my bed.
And then I had like a thickass comforter, and I had wet my bed,
and she made me wash everything by hand in the
bathtub, and I was probably like,
you know, like, Somalian skinny?
-Like you see those commercials? -Mm-hm.
Like that.
There were washing machines in the hallway of our floor,
but because I wet the bed--
[Orna] So, rather than take care of whatever was upsetting
you, and causing you to wet your bed,
she made you work.
Yeah.
Do the laundry, by the way.
[Yaya] By hand.
Do the laundry -- I'm just thinking about the beginning
of the session.
So you're describing a pattern of...
a lot of really intense compliance, and ignoring
very bad things that are happening.
So you asked her if she is being compliant.
Mm-hm.
Is that like in relation to how I'm acting-- oh.
Yeah.
Yeah, because when I say-- remember,
I described my -- what she now calls "tantrums" --
as being a monster, that's...
And I've said that to her.
[Orna] And that's how you end up feeling because...
[Cyn] I treat her like shit, and I feel really bad.
[Orna] Right, and you feel really bad.
And then, she doesn't say anything.
Right, but there's something that's getting very powerfully
played out between the two of you that you keep taking it
upon yourself, like it's all generated from you,
but some of it is coming from you.
That nurturing, like, almost I'm mothering her?
Or do you feel like she's, like...
you're enabling me. Is that-- is that--
[Orna] That's a great word, yeah.
Well, I'm enabling her behavior.
Yes, in a way, you're...
in some kind of...
in a way -- beautiful way -- but very not good for the two of
you, you're enacting each of your enacting parts of your
childhoods with each other.
Because you're back in the situation, where, whatever
warning signs you're sending, the other person
is not picking up on.
You're back in the situation where someone's treating you
badly, and you're just compliant.
You're really...
nicely fitting each other to reenact what's
been very painful for you in the past.
You have to break out of that mold.
Mm.
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[Orna VO] A person can build a life in a way that they can
maneuver around or away from areas of trauma.
But romantic relationships
tend to bring up a lot,
because they're the closest in terms of intensity and
dependance to early childhood experiences.
[Tom] I think we are thinking about
how trauma manifests in everyday relationships.
Mm-hm.
But at the same time, people are confronted with
the opportunity to change.
Right, the whole system gets kind of reactivated as you
rework certain things that were frozen in time.
For a shut down traumatized person,
that can be pretty scary.
So I try to convince people to let go of their fear...
and you'll see things can change beyond your capacity
to even imagine.
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