moody ambient music
[Molly VO] All right, let's start in child's pose.
Reach your arms forward but let them be soft.
Try to do nothing.
Good, exhale.
Take a deep breath in...
full breath out.
Tuck your back toes, and inhale, reach the arms up.
And then, when you're ready, left leg, inhale.
High, high, high, up in the armpits.
[slow deep breathing]
Virginia!
[Virginia] Hi, dear.
Hello.
So, let's talk.
I was thinking that Molly has kind of a therapeutic take on
what a marriage is, that we heal each other,
and what she wants is more intimacy,
more connection with him.
[Virginia] Yes. What she wants is a "feel me"
thing -- "know me and feel me" thing.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
That he should figure out how to heal,
so he can come back on the job--
-[Orna] Of healing me. -Of healing me daily.
Yeah.
Because he doesn't know what it would be like for him to
be the subject of the story and for that to go on for more than
four sentences or less.
He perks up when he gets a chance to speak his mind and
take the space.
[Virginia] Yeah.
[Orna] But then when she takes over,
you can see this other kind of relief wash over him.
Exactly, exactly.
And I would want to know:
"Would you like to get your shot at stardom for a while?"
[Orna] Mm-hm.
"'Cause I'm going to be asking you more about yourself,
and I know you're going to turn me away,
and you're gonna wanna turn toward her..."
[Orna] Yeah, yeah.
"And I'm not gonna let it happen."
Yeah.
Interesting.
[Josh VO] Happy Tuesday.
[Orna VO] Happy Tuesday.
It is Tuesday, right?
[Molly] Yeah, it just feels like
I don't even know what day it is.
Mm-hm.
Although it feels like summer still.
It still feels like...
all the days.
[Molly] [sighs] Yeah.
Do you want to say anything?
[laughs]
Is there a warm-up?
[laughs]
[chuckling] Can we ease into things?
Or is it just-- [snaps]
No small talk, you don't do small talk.
You'd prefer to small talk, you wanna jump right in...
I hate small talk.
Like, it's my least favorite thing.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I think it's because small talk is a way to cover discomfort.
I would rather just start.
Mm-hm.
It's ma-- [chuckling] It's making me think about,
like, if we're sitting on the couch, right?
And-- [laughs]
Josh will go like...
-Mm-hm. -[Molly] Right?
And I'm just like, "Just-- just, like,
kiss me or some--" It's like--
-Small talk. -[Molly] A hundred percent.
-Mm-hm. -[laughing] A hundred percent.
[laughing] Come on, I'm not--
I'm not that-- I'm not that obvious.
No, I know, and I'm just saying--
-[Orna] The small talk! -[laughs]
It's like the first time we kissed.
Sure.
Where I was like, "Just do what you're gonna-- like,
just do it!"
So you're coming at the situation rather than...
-[Molly] Yes. -[Orna] Mm-hm.
Josh, what is it like for you to be on the receiving end of that?
It feels-- I feel like--
I feel pressure to...
present the answer that she is looking for.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Josh] I mean, I guess I think it's disconcerting to Molly.
Uh...
I don't know, do you know what I mean?
[Orna] Mm-hm. But you're going back to Molly.
I'm asking you about your experience.
Um, can you be more specific?
[Orna] Did you know notice that?
That you went and you-- I asked you a question about being on
the receiving end...
[Josh] Yeah, I guess which is why I--
And you went to back to discomfort in Molly.
I mean, it's good for you to notice--
Oh, that she felt that way, rather than how I might have
felt about it.
[Orna] Yeah.
Yeah, really important for you to notice that...
move.
Yeah.
Can I, um, ask you,
can you talk a little bit about your history?
[Josh] Sure.
Uh, I grew up in Connecticut.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Uh, 'til I was about 10.
You know, we went to church, we had the red door and the white
house, and, like, all-- you know what I mean?
We were like the picket fe-- like-- we didn't actually have a
picket fence, but, like, it was, like,
that kind of, like, out of a...
And, um...
my mom met somebody that she worked with,
and they fell in love.
Wait, at what point?
[Josh] I was eight.
And the affair lasted for about a year and a half,
I think.
My dad found out about it at some point and confronted her.
Over the course of the next year...
my mom was gone a lot at night,
she would come home late.
It seemed-- I don't know if she did,
but in my memory, she was always gone.
We had this bay window in the front of the house,
and this big curtain that closed and then the carpet,
and I could climb out onto the bay window...
and sit behind that curtain.
Mm-hm.
And so I would-- that was, like,
my spot kinda waiting for my mom to come home.
This is the image that I have: my sister upstairs on the phone
-- she's in junior high -- I'm sitting in the bay window,
my dad's at the dinner table...
with the cold dinner waiting for my mom to come home.
[exhales deeply] Whoa.
His father had said that he will...
go to his grave shaking his head...
in not understand-- in just not knowing...
-[Josh] How did that happen? -[Molly] How did it happen.
What do you mean?
[Josh] Like, I think he couldn't believe that she
would leave him.
-So I think it's his own-- -[Orna] Because?
I think a little bit of his own ego.
I think...
he couldn't see his part, that he had maybe not given her...
what she really needed...
-What she was-- -[Orna] Mm-hm.
-You know, longing for. -[laughs]
-What are you thinking? -[Molly] I mean...
Which, of course, is ironic because here,
Molly's asking for what she really needs,
and I'm having a hard time...
potentially--
But the two of you are living with that script
in the background:
conflict leads to, like, the ultimate breakup...
and abandonment.
[Josh] Yeah.
[sighs]
I don't know, the notion of, like,
sitting in that window...
like, I-- when I think about that kid,
I'm like...
Like, I identify with characters in stories that...
that are good at hiding--
-[Orna] Mm-hm. -To survive.
Right? Like kids-- like the kids--
-[Orna] Behind the curtain. -Yeah, sure.
Kids in the story who...
hide from the monster instead of fight it.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
It's upsetting, but it also seems relevant to something
between the two of you.
Do you hear that?
I do think that when I was...
spending time with other people--
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I do feel like he was...
Waiting behind the curtain, for sure, yeah.
-[Molly] Yeah. -Yeah.
mellow ambient music
[sighs]
[notification sound]
[Cyn] Ooh!
This water's cold as fuck! [laughs]
[Cyn] Go, baby, go! Go! [laughs]
[girl shrieking]
[notification sounds]
So we had a drive down to Virginia Beach this weekend,
and I think it was one of the best drives we've had.
Even though we had the kids in the car,
we left so late that once they were in the car,
they just fell asleep. [laughs]
-[Orna] Great. -It was, like, instant. [laughs]
Yeah, so then that left us to literally drive for, what?
Six and a half hours.
Six and a half hours to get down there,
and we were able to just...talk.
We didn't even have the music on,
nothing, we were just talking.
[Cyn] Mm-hm.
And I realized that my anger towards my parents is being
projected onto her.
Oh.
Then, I started to realize, "Okay.
You are not my parents, you are my wife."
[Orna] Mm-hm.
"And what do I want from you?
So you're showing me the...
confidence that you have, or you're showing me that you're
fighting for it."
[Orna] Mm-hm. As in how?
Like we were talking and her tone was changing,
and I was like, "I don't like the way
you're talking to me right now."
[Orna] Excellent.
So then she kinda, like, readjusted and we just kept
with the conversation.
-Mm-hm. -At first, I was like, "Oh.
Okay, she's...
she's manning up...
just like I said."
And I was like, "Okay, you're right."
-I need that, um-- -It was helpful.
[Cyn] Yeah.
You know, all I really wanted was for her to just...
get her power back.
I told her, "Just glow-up."
Mm-hm.
I don't want you to be backstage, like...
Yeah.
When we first were together, I needed someone to take care
of me. I'm not there anymore.
It's more than you don't need that,
it's preventing both of you from growing.
I'm coddling her, I'm keeping her in this...
-Shell. -[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Yeah. -Sleeping bag.
-[Yaya] Yeah. -I forgot about that one.
-[laughs] -Mm-hm.
[Cyn] But I can see that she's putting in an effort.
She actually got in the water at the beach.
She doesn't usually do that.
-[Yaya] Yeah. -[Cyn] I was like, "Okay."
And it was nice.
I normally don't do that, and I'm "Do you need something?
[laughs] Do you need a towel?
Do you need a sand thing to make a..."
-She plays it safe all the time. -Yeah.
This weekend, she was a little bit more loose,
and I appreciated that.
So, okay, that sounds very good -- this conversation you had,
this trip, what you're describing.
[Cyn] Yeah.
Tell me more about what's been on your mind.
We still have not been intimate yet.
-[Yaya] Yeah. -Mm-hm.
[Yaya] We talked about that, right?
And I said, "You know what?
There's too many people in our house."
Just because, like, her mother lives with us.
Mm-hm.
So this is what I'm gonna do: I'm going to have [chuckles]...
her brother's family, like, take the kids overnight,
and I was like, "And I'm gonna tell your mom,
'Go... to the casino--
-"With your sister." -To the casino.
-Sleep over at her house.'" -[Orna] Mm-hm.
-So that it's just us. -Nice.
[Yaya] And if it happens, it happens.
If it doesn't, then it doesn't.
But we have that liberty that if we wanna be free in the house...
-[Orna] Mm-hm. -We're free in the house.
-[Orna] Nice. -So...
So each of you needs certain things in order to even enter...
-[Cyn] That space. -An erotic state-of-mind.
[Cyn] Yes.
Yeah, it has to be a controlled environment.
Mm-hm.
Because it's just like a lot of my...
control issues -- because they're control -- like, I...
like the control because I didn't have the control
growing up. Like, I...
grew up in chaos, so I need to control A, B, C.
Mm-hm.
[Yaya] You know, like it has to be like this.
You know, like, I had that insecurity,
like, "Oh, any day now.
Like, are we still gonna be living here or are we not gonna
be living here? Are we gonna have...
enough for food or are we not gonna have enough for food?"
Mm-hm.
Like, there was one time, like, when we got evicted from the
apartment...
[Orna] What was the eviction about?
What happened there?
I think my mom wasn't paying rent;
I don't even know.
Like, it just got to a point where we were like,
"Oh, we're getting evicted again."
But what was going on with her?
She just didn't pay.
She didn't pay rent.
I don't know what she used the money for.
So she just consistently...
doesn't show up as a mother, as a caretaker?
[Yaya] Yeah.
I feel like she always has, like,
these empty words, right?
Like, she'll say...
When I was pregnant, she was like,
"Oh, when you're gonna give birth,
I'm gonna come," 'cause she was in the Dominican Republic.
"I'm gonna come and be here for the birth."
I said, "This is my due date.
If she comes, she comes."
She didn't come.
Right?
"Oh, when you're gonna do the-- when you guys have a date for
the baptism...
right? Lemme know."
And I said, "Okay, here's the date."
"I'm gonna make it."
She didn't come.
So...
This is very, um...
upsetting stuff that you're describing.
It is, and I know, like, as I talk about it,
like, I feel the anger, I feel the resentment--
The anger, and the long-standing kind of...
impasse and grudge that you've been living with.
[Yaya] Mm-hm, yeah.
[Orna] That's an engine you need to connect to.
Yeah.
[Orna] Rather than shutting it down.
Mm-hm.
Sounds like you have pretty good reasons to be angry.
I know.
So all that affects us.
-[Orna] Mm-hm. -Yeah.
We should think about how.
Okay.
[Orna] Because Cyn, when you act like Yaya's mother--
Mm-hm.
[Orna] By not treating her well,
she shuts down.
Yeah.
[Orna] But it seems to me like you're kinda tired
of that dynamic.
-Yeah. -[Orna] Good.
mellow ambient music
[Orna VO] An important part of couples work is to identify the
key dynamic that you think will make the most change.
There are times where we'll have conversations,
you'll tell me that you don't want me to speak,
or it's bullshit.
I've never said that.
I'm telling you I'm feeling like I'm not being heard!
It seems to me that you do a lot of regulating each other...
and less recognizing each other.
-Yes! -Yeah.
True.
[Orna VO] Sometimes, they might be too vulnerable to hear what I
need to say, so timing is everything,
and I don't always get it right.
I feel like there's a lot of confusion for each of you about
what's going on inside of you.
Hm.
I guess my issue is I don't feel confused.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Like, only you make me feel confused.
[laughs]
[Orna VO] Couples do all these, like,
funny maneuvers defending each other and protecting each other,
and everything gets, like, hidden.
There's some things that I don't-- like,
I have to go home with her.
You don't wanna say things--
I don't wanna hurt her feelings.
Mm-hm.
[Orna VO] So as their therapist,
I wanna see through their defenses.
It's like a puzzle that I keep wanting to solve.
[Will VO] She's really well-behaved
when she's here with you.
[Orna VO] Mm-hm.
She listens, and I feel like there's an actual dialogue, and
I feel like even when she's talking about her feelings,
she communicates in a more effective way.
Mm-hm.
But whenever we try to do it on our own,
it's completely different.
Do you understand what Will is saying?
Yeah.
[Orna] Um...
I call bullshit.
Okay, but that's exactly the opposite of what I'm asking you,
so... let's just note--
This is why I don't tell you anything, because I--
-No. -[Orna] Right.
According to you, everything I say and everything that comes
out of my mouth is bullshit, so why bother?
Okay, well, then don't, then.
Then shut up.
-Because you're-- -I'm sorry, what is this?
He likes to think that he is this person where,
you know, "I'm trying to communicate,
I'm the peacemaker, I'm blah blah blah."
He is not.
Okay, so do you wanna do therapy?
I thought that's what we were here for.
Okay, so abusing each other is not therapeutic.
-[Ping] Exactly, yeah. -So don't.
I'm trying not to, which is why I'm--
-[Orna] So Ping? -On my best behavior.
-[Orna] Ping! Look at me--
-[Ping] I am looking at you. -And try to follow my advice.
[Ping] Okay.
What you're doing right now is destructive;
it's not therapy.
So just don't do it now.
[sighs]
I understand his frustration.
[Orna] With?
With me.
I understand that he doesn't know how to handle
it when I get angry because...
he just sees the anger, and he doesn't see
what is underneath it.
Mm-hm.
In previous therapies, when you got to this point,
what happened?
I'm not sure we've gotten...
this far.
Mm-hm.
We were allowed to kind of just fight with each other,
to the point where--
[Orna] That's not helpful.
The person was just like, "Okay, well..."
-[Orna] Yeah. -"You know..."
-[chuckles] -"What do you wanna do?"
At one point, I am just like--
That's not what happened, is y--
You know, the therapist said something you didn't like,
then she gets triggered and she blows up,
and then we fire the therapist.
Mm-hm.
So we still haven't figured out what I'm doing to trigger--
like, what that trigger is and what I'm triggering.
So let's try.
[scoffs]
So I guess it all goes back to just being...
acknowledged as someone important in his life.
-[Orna] Mm-hm. -Right?
And I think, yeah, a lot of that goes back to my own childhood.
Yeah, a lot of neglect.
A lot of neglect, a lot of, you know,
no one telling me that I was good or smart or whatever,
and it...
it stays with you.
Mm-hm.
The way that it-- in which it plays out with us,
with the lifestyle as an example,
if we're embarking on this together,
then we need to be a solid unit, we need to be a team,
we need to be partners.
But there's a part of me that always feels like "Okay,
well, I kind of feel like you're just...
you're using me.
Right?
To-- to enjoy this lifestyle and...
everything that I need from you in order to feel special,
to feel like a partner, I'm not getting."
Okay, so we talked about this a few weeks ago when we were
talking about the choice to live kind of a non-monogamous--
-[Ping] Right. -Life, right?
Which is interesting if one of your...
tender spots has to do with feeling...
not special--
-[Ping] Mm-hm. -Not seen.
-[Ping] Right. -Right?
You'd think that if you wanted to really address that fully,
you'd want, like, a super-monogamous...
tight kind of relationship.
Right? So the choice to...
enter situations in which that is...
at play is interesting, right?
-That you're-- -[Ping] Right.
It's like you're-- in a way, you're...
you're setting up a situation to provoke yourself.
Which is interesting.
It reminds me of what you said about Korea -- that in a way,
you kind of have this-- you orchestrate a certain plan,
and then you set yourself up to feel left behind,
not thought of.
[Ping] Right.
[Orna] So there is some way that you're...
kind of unconsciously creating these scenes for yourself where
you get to revisit what has hurt you the most.
You both seem suddenly quite sad.
What's going on?
I feel like that lifestyle helped me kinda come out of my
shell a little bit...
[voice cracking] and I thought by meeting him that I found a
partner, you know?
That would see me and...
[sighs]
And I think what makes me sad is I just...
I don't really think he sees me.
Well, I have a couple of thoughts,
but first, I wanna say that, um...
these kind of early experiences of deprivation and
neglect sit very deep,
and...
there's a certain degree of being unseen that...
you're gonna have to live with...
in the sense that it's always gonna be there,
it's not like somebody else can come in and see you the way you
needed to be seen then.
So there's a certain pain that you're living with that this
relationship can't fix.
"Creature of Habit" by Elizabeth Moen
I'm a creature of habit when I'm feeling low
Asking myself questions I already know the answers to
I've been trying to sleep on my other side
I've been trying to keep you off my mind
I wish I had another face in front of mine
I wish I had some other way to pass the time...
[Ping] [sighs]
I wish I were in love
Then I'd have something to do
I wish I had someone
To pay attention to
So I could stop thinking of you
I'm a creature of habit when I'm feeling good
Calling up a lover when I'm in the mood
And wine has helped