instrumental music
[Yaya] We had a busy weekend.
We went to Fire Island.
And there was this whole, like, lez volleyball tournament,
which was really fun.
So, you know, we were around a whole slew of lesbians, right?
You know, everyone's socializing.
I'm more of the reserved person, but I was like, "Ah,
eff it, I'm just--"
-No, she was the mayor. -No, I was not.
She was the mayor. She's out there talking like...
-I was like, "Oh, okay--" -You know why?
Because I'm very big on the energy that I get from people.
So when we walk--
It's like, "Oh, there you are again.
What's she doing all the way over there?
[chuckling] You're supposed to..."
[Yaya] We played the first game, and
she's like, "Yeah, the kids are with my brother's family.
They'll be with them.
So yeah, they'll be some lady loving today."
And I was like, "Oh, did I hear correctly, you know?"
I was in the mood, and then it kind of just died down because I
was really tired. [laughs]
[Yaya] And I was like, "Oh, okay."
[Cyn] Because it was one of those days
where I overbooked us.
-Then Sunday she texts me-- -Yeah, I text her.
And I was like, "I was a little bit..."
I think I said, "I'm sad."
She said, "I'm saddened."
"I'm saddened because, you know, I really thought..."
And she's like, "Well, maybe."
-"Maybe." -"Tomorrow maybe, whatever."
She was like, "I was really thinking about it."
-And I was like, "Yeah, but--" -I am.
-I'm easing into it. -I'd rather it just like...
-I am easing into it. -Let's just not speak of it.
Let's just...
I don't want to tell you because then you're gonna get
your hopes up.
And I tell her, I'm like, "Listen..."
What's the problem then?
Then you both get a little excited and then...
And then it just kind of happens, yeah.
-So... -No, I--
We just need to get people out the house.
Well, your niece is leaving.
The kids will be in their room.
Yeah, but Ma's always, like, there.
But she's downstairs. She's in her room-- her room.
Yeah, but I've always fantasized to, like, have sex everywhere in
our house, and we haven't done that yet.
We have not.
Where it's like, "Okay, I want to have sex in the kitchen.
I want to have sex in the living room.
I want to have sex in the attic..."
We've only done it...
We keep it confined to our room.
That's sort of-- that's a symbol of what you've been
saying from the beginning, that it's sort of too--
you've gotten too domesticated.
-[Cyn] Oh, yes. -[Yaya] Yeah.
[Orna] And it sounds like you're becoming more
open to new experiences.
[both] Yes.
So I'm just feeling that it may happen.
I'm like open to it.
[chuckles]
I'm not as closed off as I was a couple months ago.
I feel like I'm cheesing right now,
like from ear to ear.
[laughter]
instrumental music
[MTA announcer] The next uptown train is now arriving on
the express tracks.
Please stand away from the platform edge when trains are
entering and leaving the station.
tuning guitar
[Orna] How are the two of you doing?
I think we're doing pretty...well.
Pretty good, pretty well.
-Mm-hm. -[Molly] It's weird.
I feel like we...are... in a really good place.
I do wonder if...
being in a really good place is just another way
of pushing down...
again, like, the stuff that we don't wanna continue to look at.
Mm-hm.
[Josh] You know, we've had these really wonderful
moments together.
We had a lovely date the other night.
You know, physically, things have been really very intimate
and...good. [laughs]
-[laughs] -Good.
Very good.
Um...
But with that comes this...
I think...
a little bit of like, "Oh, is this too good to be..."
[Molly] I think, for me, I guess, I don't trust or know
when I'm gonna feel fully forgiven by you.
I don't know when it's all gonna come up again.
Right? Like, I feel like...
when we're in a really good place,
I wanna get comfortable.
But then I'm not sure when, all of the sudden,
everything's gonna be thrown back at me.
It seems to me that you are looking for a...
point...
that then we move past.
I'm not looking for a point.
I'm just anticipating that, while we're good now,
it doesn't mean we're not gonna have moments where we're not
good, so I'm anticipating that it's going to bring back,
"I don't trust you," and--
It might.
Right, so that is not...
I'm not interested in doing that for the next 50 years.
Right.
I'm not interested in hearing about...
all of the things that I've done wrong.
Like, I am not interested in that being...
what is brought to the surface
every time we are in some sort of a difficult situation.
What needs to happen for you
to have this not be...
part of our...
present anymore?
Thinking...
I might be thinking too much about the past.
What are your thoughts about the past?
[inhales]
Why are you shaking your head?
Because it's frustrating, honey.
-What's frustrating? -[Molly] He won't...
-He won't what? -He won't...
talk about...
But he is talking.
You just rolled your eyes.
[sighs]
But this is typical of us, right?
That you're like, "I'm ready, here we go,
let's get on my timeline.
I'm ready to move on.
I want this healing to happen.
What does it take?
Let's do it.
And I won't have to be responsible for,
you know, about the pain that you feel, or whatever."
No, that's not it.
It's just that I don't like being caught off guard.
Right? Like, I don't know...
[Orna] But Molly, then my suggestion to you would be to
create good conditions for...
talking or...
opening up a dialogue.
[Josh] So, like... [sighs]
I guess something that we could get into is that you have kind
of said for a long time that the decisions you made were about
you, and they weren't about me.
And then the other morning to have you say, basically,
some of your choices were kind of an "eff you" to me,
were a way to, like, get me to react or...
get me to respond...
[Orna] What was your reaction hearing that?
[chuckles]
I kind of felt included in like a weird...
-Not weird. -[Josh] Fucked up way.
It feels fucked up that you're, like, included in my infidelity.
That's not weird.
[Josh] Right, but-- Okay, I guess in my mind I felt
like that...
like the kid who's sitting in the...
in the window by-- totally by myself.
And so that's where I emotionally was.
Like, "Okay, Molly is not thinking about me.
She's doing these things and not thinking about me,
and that means she doesn't care about me."
[Orna] And that she will ultimately leave.
And that she ultimately could leave, yeah.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Josh] Yeah, to feel kind of included was...
[sighs]
A different kind of feeling, which was welcome.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
It breaks you out of the narrative that you
had as a kid.
[Josh] Yeah.
And into this story and this family.
[Josh] Yeah.
instrumental music
-[Josh] Thanks. -[Molly] Thank you.
Bye.
[woman VO] When you start your sessions with the couples,
do you deep dive of each of them individually and their past
history?
[Orna] I start with, like, their presenting problem,
and when something kind of gives me a cue,
then I go there.
-Right. -Mm-hm.
[Nuar] So I was curious about India and Dale.
I mean, I don't know enough about their pasts,
but I had so many questions about their histories.
[all] Mm, yeah.
[Orna] I mean, he was raised by this pastor
grandfather who was very strict,
and he seems to have, like, you know,
this aversion to anger.
So that seems to be getting in their way as a couple.
I know that I have, like, a very strong, persistent voice.
Yeah.
But she makes her opinion known when she's upset.
Like, there was an incident...
a few years back.
We went over to some friends' house,
and they were having a...
It wasn't a christening, but--
Oh, God, okay.
It was a christening.
[Dale] And at this event, India and another girl got into--
I forgot what the discussion was--
We all were in a discussion.
Well, yeah, we all were in a discussion.
-But this particular girl. -This particular girl.
She said something that was offensive.
She said...
We were talking race relations in America,
and, uh, long story short, what offset me
was she said that I'm very privileged.
And so, you know, that-- those are fighting words....
B, you don't know me, like-- [laughs]
What was the idea that you're very privileged...
Uh, okay, so we were talking about Sandra Bland --
the death of Sandra Bland --
and then I posed the question, "Well, why didn't someone bail
her out? Why didn't..."
Or she didn't tap into her resources.
Right, "Why didn't she tap into her resources?"
Because she had a community around her.
[Dale] And then she made the point to say, "Well--"
"It wasn't that easy-- it might not've been that easy for her.
You're very privileged in saying that."
Yeah.
[India] So yeah, I thought that she was 100 percent wrong.
But I immediately...
I was immediately the bigger person.
I apologized.
He never lets me live it down.
-He-- -No, first for all--
He always throws it in my face like I'm this angry person who
he says I got into a fight or argument with someone at a baby
christening...when it's fine.
What is the issue?
For years, we would talk about this situation, and she would
find every reason in the book as to why
I wasn't on her side about it.
I was like, "It's not about being on the side."
It's, like, we're literally in a space where we came to bless an
environment and we're kind of disrupting that at this point.
His argument was to say that I was emotionally immature.
That's what you always used to say.
Because you were angry?
Yeah, because I got into an argument with someone else.
What is the issue with expressing anger?
I just thought that...
that time and place wasn't really the right time and place
to do that, in a space where we just got together to bless--
We weren't in a church. We were in someone's home.
Yeah, but they just chose to have it in their home.
That we are always in--
This is when I interject and I say,
"I am a human being, that was a human moment."
[Orna] You're also-- It's really interesting,
because generally we're talking about
how to stay engaged
in a situation of disagreement.
Yes.
[Orna] And part of what you need in order to stay engaged is
you need to stay somewhat tuned into a certain internal engine
that might have to do with anger,
with strong feelings, with righteousness.
And then the conversation that we're referring back to,
I find it really interesting that it's based on a racially
based murder.
-Mm-hm. -[Orna] Of a woman.
Mm-hm.
Yeah.
[Orna] So it seems to me that it has something to do with the
legitimacy of a Black woman staying connected to her anger,
which is a trigger for you.
Yeah, every time he goes to that example,
that is actually the place that I get to.
[Orna] Yeah.
It's like, "Why are you still holding that to me?"
As though I can't have a moment.
It's so unfair.
-It's not fair. -[Orna] Yeah.
[Dale] [sighs]
All right, we've run out of time, but do you-- do you--
I would wanna know if it's, like, culturally saturated,
what we're talking about.
-Pretty sure. -Maybe, yep.
Pretty sure.
Mm-hm.
I mean, it would be good if we can work on that here.
-[India] Yeah. -[Dale] Yeah.
instrumental music
[Ping] So, hello.
[Orna] Hello.
[Ping] Thank you for the book recommendations.
Yeah.
[Ping] Um, I got one of them.
Which one?
'High Conflict Couple.'
[Orna] Mm-hm.
It's a very short read, but there's a lot of stuff to do in
there.
Are you both reading?
[Ping] I asked him to read and he--
[Will] She read me an excerpt.
I'll read it when you're done.
Well, the goal is to read it together,
but anyway.
It kind of made me look at a lot of the shit that I was bringing
to the table.
But what in particular?
[Ping] I'm still stuck in that emotion of,
"You hurt me, so now I'm angry, and I'm stuck in anger because I
want to make you feel--"
[Orna] Anger and retaliation.
Anger retaliation, and that's where that's coming from.
But at the same time, what I've been doing is not helping him
understand where I'm coming from.
Mm-hm.
It's hard because, you know, there's a lot of [deep inhale]
moments where I look at him, and I feel bad because I'm like,
"Oh wow, you've been mean to him."
Or you've said bad things, or you've been just a total
asshole, right?"
But how do you undo it.
Because a lot of it is knee-jerk, obviously,
because that's been my narrative for so long.
I think ever since I was a kid.
So what do you do with that?
You know? And--
You-- you do a very, very intense override.
It's hard work.
It's a lot of shit to work back.
But, I get it. I get it.
I'm moved by what you're saying.
Moved with you, it's wonderful.
[sighs]
[Orna] How are you, Will?
Sitting and listening, and...
Not to seem impatient, but I haven't really seen the results
of that, like, I haven't seen...
much improvement in our interactions with each other.
Like, our daily interactions are minimum.
Barely there.
And I have a hard time trusting that
there's going to be noticeable changes
in our relationship.
And I almost feel like, you know,
she's working on herself...
to, you know, improve...
herself and her ability to have a relationship with...
the next person, not me.
[Orna] Thoughts about that?
[Ping] I'm trying to undo...
some of this-- this crap.
I'm trying to be better, and...
[sighs]
I mean, it makes me sad because I thought he would be on that
same journey with me towards recognizing our own folly and
bullshit, and saying, "You know what?
I'm contributing to what's at play here."
But, you know, to what he was telling you earlier,
it's like, "Well, I feel like she's getting better for the
next relationship."
And quite honestly, if he continues with stonewalling me
and withdrawing, then yeah, that's where I'm headed.
instrumental music
[Orna] I think that with Ping it's going better.
We're developing a language together.
[Virginia on phone] Yeah.
[Orna] But Will has a very upsetting background with his
mother, which he keeps replaying with Ping.
[Virginia on phone] Right.
[Orna] I've been on him in terms of like moving out of that
receded position because if he wants something to change
between them, that's what he needs to work on.
So ideally I'd want to, like, send Will to some kind of really
intensive analytic treatment, and have them come back after
he's done like an important chapter there.
[Virginia on phone] You know, we have limited time with these
patients, and we can take them to an edge, but sometimes only
to that edge.
Yes, exactly.
[Virginia on phone] So what's the story with Cyn and Yaya?
-[Orna] They're doing well. -[Virigina on phone] Great.
[Orna] Yaya, in our last session,
she made a pretty dramatic shift.
I mean, she blossomed.
[Virginia on phone] Wow.
[Orna] And the dynamic of their relationship changed in a way
that I didn't anticipate.
[Virginia on phone] That's interesting.
[Orna] So I feel kind of hopeful for them.
[Virginia] Yeah.
[Yaya] Friday, we were alone in the house.
Nothing happened.
[Orna] Nothing happened.
[Yaya] No.
What does that mean?
We didn't have sex.
[Orna] Okay, but tell me more.
[Cyn] Okay, so...
she came home early.
I was just like, "All right, it's Friday.
Let me just unwind," so then I started watching a series.
She's upstairs the whole entire time doing the laundry.
I was waiting for her to sit with me on the couch
and watch TV.
And then I went upstairs and I was using the bathroom, and
I called you. I said, "Come up."
And you were like, "No, come down."
And I was like--
[Cyn] I got literally sucked into the series.
Then, I fall asleep on the couch.
But that's because you were doing something on the computer.
Okay, but regardless we still did not do anything.
I think the end of the day--
[Orna] So who...
I mean, you both sound avoidant.
[Cyn] It's more like, let's say, it does happen,
and the feeling is that she'll feel--
like, she'll be on cloud nine,
but what if I don't feel that way.
You were afraid that you would not get into it?
[Cyn] Or, like, I just-- I won't--
I'd be scared that I won't feel that connection.
Like, I just...
[Orna] Yaya, what about you?
What were you avoiding?
[Yaya] If we actually were intimate and,
like, in the middle of it, her...
like, being triggered.
That's the only thing you were scared of?
Really, yeah.
You said "rejection."
[Yaya] Well, that too...the rejection.
[Orna] Okay.
So how-- how are the two of you feeling?
What do you think is going on?
[sighs] I honestly don't know-- I-- I...
What are you afraid is going on?
I'm afraid that she-- we're going through these motions just
for her to be like, "Look, I...
I did everything, and at the end of the day, like, I still
don't want to be with you," you know?
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Where are you, Cyn?
You're trying to say I'm manipulating the situation.
What do you mean?
It's like I've already made my mind up.
No, I have not.
That's why I'm here.
Like, I...
I don't know.
I'm drained.
[Orna] Right now.
Yeah, I'm just...
[Orna] You're in a knot.
What would...
[Cyn] Yeah, I feel like it's a constant cycle, and we're back
here again.
If this weren't gonna work out, what's gonna happen?
Life goes on.
Like, yeah, I love you, but you give yourself a lot of weight.
A lot of power.
Yeah, a lot of power on how I'm feeling.
You're not my whole joy.
She turned that switch back on.
That's what she's doing right now.
She does this switch where it's like,
"Oh, we'll talk about our feelings,"
and then if someone interrupts then the switch just comes on
and she just-- she just turns all those emotions off.
That's what she's doing right now.
What am I doing right now?
I'm presently here.
I'm feeling everything that we're talking about.
And you talk about I'm turning on a switch.
[Cyn] Would you really be okay?
Yeah, what are you...
[Orna] I just want to interrupt this for a second, and ask...
how has so much
come to rest on the sexual relationship?
-I don't know. -Like, I just want it, like--
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Just for the pleasure aspect of it, just for the...
I just want it.
You're the one who's putting weight on it.
Like, "Oh, if I don't feel like I'm flying in the sky,
then that's it for me."
[Orna] What about the two of you being intimate?
You don't have to have full on sex.
You don't have to have, like, you know...
work towards an orgasm, whatever.
Why don't the two of you try to demystify the whole connection
so we can get a little bit more of a sense of what's actually
going on?
We just haven't done it, so I just figured that was the issue.
[Orna] But the haven't done it, haven't done it,
haven't done it.
It sounds like it's accumulated a lot of meaning.
Do you feel open to doing some things?
Yes.
[Orna] I think you need to break that barrier, so it stops
being like a phobia.
Just do it.
-[Orna] Yeah, just do it. -Yeah, I get it.
[Orna] If there was a way for the two of you to go away,
just the two of you, for a weekend or something like that?
You highly suggest it.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
This weekend is booked.
The next weekend is booked.
It's more of who is gonna take care of the kids.
Figure it out.
This is important.
All right, we have to stop, so I'm sending you with--
-[Cyn] Homework. -Homework.
Let's break through some of these phobic boundaries and see
what's going on there.
Okay.
All right.
-Thank you, Orna. -Thank you.
-[Orna] Good night. -[Yaya] Good night.
"Strange Conversations" by Automatic
I'm walking backwards
Though I find it hard to tell
The world goes faster
When your time is runnning out
I see you leaving
Don't you put me on the shelf
I've lost my patience
All you do is let me down
I got out
I go out
On a Tuesday
I go out
(On a Tuesday)
I go out
(On a Tuesday)
I go out
On a Tuesday...