[door opens]
[Yaya VO] Yours actually came out good.
[Cyn VO] Yours came out nice.
[Yaya VO] I was like, "Um--"
[Cyn VO] I was surprised yours came out...
Oh...
[Yaya] Lemme see, turn?
You do have to dye your hair, though.
Mm-hm.
-I see a lotta... -White?
Yeah, you're salt 'n' pepper now.
[both laugh]
Hello
-Hi, Orna! -Hey.
[Cyn] You're gonna ask us how are we, right?
How are you?
[both laugh]
Um...
Well, we finally had sex. [laughs]
upbeat theme music
-[Cyn VO] So we went away. -[Orna VO] You did?!
We did, yeah, we took your advice.
-[Orna] Great! -Yeah.
Yeah, you lit some fire up our butt.
That wasn't even, like, advice; it didn't feel like advice.
-It's like "Go do it now." -That was a prescription.
[Cyn] [laughing] Yeah, yeah, literally.
[Yaya] "Like, you need to go, like...
Like, when you leave here, you need to just go home and pack
your bags."
[laughs]
So I think I did the hardest thing I could ever [chuckles]
have done. I felt like I sold my--
-Oh, she did. -My soul to the Devil.
[Orna] Okay.
-[Yaya] I called my mother-- -Wow.
And I asked her to come stay at our house with her mom--
Yeah, that a big move.
So that we could do this, like we can go away.
Very interesting.
[Yaya] That I called her, right? [chuckles]
That the whole session started with your moms.
I mean, I don't know yet what to make of it,
but it's interesting.
That's how it all started.
That's, like, a big step for me--
[Orna] Yes.
-To, you know-- -[Orna] Very big.
'Cause I was just like, [whispering] "Crap."
-Mm-hm. -[Cyn] So we went away.
It was, like, beautiful mountain views,
and it just felt so calming for me.
[Orna] Yeah.
And I was just like, "Oh... Let's see if she'll wake up."
She was like, "Honey," and I was like, "Oh, okay."
[Cyn] We got into it real quick. [laughs]
But, you know, this is what I was hoping for, right?
That you would allow yourselves to,
like, get over this kind of phobic block,
and first, just connect.
-[Yaya] Mm-hm. -[Cyn] Yeah.
We were enjoying ourselves,
but we were probably, like, in our heads.
Mm-hm.
[Yaya] You know, because subconsciously,
that was, like, in the back of my mind--
Mm-hm.
Like, "Oh my God, is this gonna be good enough for her?"
Mm-hm.
Like, I tried to stay, like, in the moment, and I did.
No, you were.
I did, I was in the moment, I was present.
And it was good.
I did tell her we've had...
to me, more...
just, like, eventful sex.
Mm-hm.
But I understood it just needed to be done.
Right.
[Yaya] It just needed to be-- the bandaid needed to be
ripped off.
I think I was also trying to get emotionally into it and I
couldn't get emotionally into it.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Which was slightly frustrating for me.
Yeah, but then you're putting so much pressure--
[Orna] Both of you are putting so much pressure.
I mean, slowly, slowly, small steps, like...
[Yaya] Yeah.
But the emotional aspect of it...
I'm disconnected.
-[Orna] Mm-hm. -And...
it had nothing to do with her. She's-- it was-- it was all me.
[Orna] Yeah.
Where I'm like-- I don't have the emotional connection to it.
Have you ever?
-I don't think I have. -[Orna] Mm-hm.
I think it's just always-- and I think it's always just
been an activity.
-[Orna] Yeah. -It's like it-- there's a goal--
You need something that's outside of you, in a way.
Yeah!
Like, even though I have all these desires,
there's no emotional connection to these desires.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
My emotional connection is with her,
and I just need to find a way to mesh the emotion and the
activity and just...
all be her.
That makes a lot of sense, but there's a lot more that you
could be doing with each other that will help you to reconnect.
Okay, so...
what are you talking about?
I'm talking about, like, just exploring each other,
how it feels.
I mean, I don't know, focus on a particular sensation and just
stay there, and connect...there.
-Hm. -We could try.
-Just be present. -[Yaya] Yeah.
Hm.
Can I send you some literature?
[Yaya] Yeah!
Absolutely, 'cause my wheels are turning right now.
I will send you a book, maybe even two.
Okay.
-Are you blushing? -I'm not.
[chuckling] Yes, you...
I'm not, but I just like the energy we have right now,
so... I'm enjoying it.
-[Orna] Mm-hm. -I'm staying present, so...
cool funky music
[laughs]
[Orna VO] Let's talk about India and Dale.
I'm looking for a language of how to help expand the
conversation with them.
[Kali] Can I just ask a question?
Has your whiteness been named with them?
[Orna] In what way?
[Kali] Did they ever challenge you about it?
No.
I want them to.
-[man] Mm. -How?
[Kali] I think it would be inquiring deeper about
that difference.
[man] Yeah.
Because I think they're showing themselves but...
I'm-- there's obviously more layers to them.
Like, she tells the story about getting into an argument about
Sandra Bland, and I kept thinking about how she feels so
much pressure to live up to Dale's standards.
Mm-hm.
I feel like there's a way Dale wants to silence her.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Because of his own internal...
-[Orna] Insecurities. -[Cynthia] Yeah.
That is that internalized racism.
[Cynthia] Mm-hm.
Like, if they were able to describe that...
Right. But how do you get there?
[Kali] I think asking how it felt.
Mm-hm.
And you could even be like, "I know,
like, I'm a white therapist, but could you help me understand
what this feels like from your perspective?"
Mm-hm.
It was a tough week...
starting from leaving the last session.
Mm-hm.
We got into a heated discussion about it.
[Orna] About this christening party?
[Dale] Yeah.
I feel like he is the only person that walked out of
that situation...
uneasy.
I'm not saying that what happened is okay,
but it does happen, you know?
Mm-hm.
He has somewhere, at some point,
disconnected from almost all emotions,
because it's not just angry emotions.
I feel like when I'm trying to connect with him being silly or
overly happy or--
-[Orna] Mm-hm. -It's always too much.
He never taps in.
It's not that I don't have emotions.
I've cried plenty of times in front of India, I've...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
But how many times have we cried together?
-Um... -It's the connectivity.
-Interesting. -[India] You know?
We haven't-- I don't think we've had anything
really where...
it's like we needed to cry together over it.
I mean...
the birth of a child. [laughs]
Mm-hm.
There are times that I'm trying to connect with you,
and I feel like I'm-- the bar is missed.
Okay, okay. I-- I get that.
-Emotionally. -Yeah.
But do you recognize something in that?
[Dale] No, no, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think the industry that I'm in,
when I started out in real estate,
I would get-- sometimes, I would get so high off of maybe
something happening, and then it turns out it doesn't happen.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And then, you have to pick yourself up and be able to work
again, you know?
So I've trained myself to, you know,
kind of be just kind of even-keel and--
You've probably trained yourself to be even-keeled
about... other things, too, emotionally.
Mm-hm.
And maybe when you see a lot more going on in India,
more feelings...
[Dale] Mm-hm.
Some kind of alarm goes off in you.
Yeah.
Definitely.
[Orna] What if you asked yourself "I seem to be alarmed.
Am I jealous?
Have I had to...
cut things off?"
Yeah, for sure, it's not-- it's not jealousy.
Um...
I wouldn't be completely...
-[Dale] Yeah! -Convinced.
Well, I do admire the fact that she can act freely with
her emotions.
[Orna] Mm-hm, yes.
I think, also, for me, being a Black man,
that's a little bit different.
Right.
I'm not allowed, in society, to just....be...
be mad.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
You know, hell, there are nights that I take Lincoln,
our dog, out for a walk, and I'm not even allowed to be cold.
If I put my hoodie on and I'm walking next to someone--
[Orna] Right.
Immediately, they'll stop and wait for me to pass, you know?
-[Orna] Mm-hm. -I'm just cold.
-Right. -[Dale] You know?
But-- [sighs]
I don't wanna get too much into that but--
You can get into that. I mean...
why not?
It matters.
It-- [sighs]
It's a luxury that I don't have.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And regardless of--
But even with that, did you see what just happened?
Yeah.
There are a lot of moments like this where I'm almost like...
"Are we sharing the same Black experience?" [chuckles]
-[Orna] Yeah. -Well, of course we are.
Because I know you are going through what Black men go
through, but you don't tap into that,
you don't talk about that, so...
Can I ask you...
India, you said earlier that it's different to speak to
someone who's other than to each other.
Do you feel, as a person of color,
a lot of discomfort to talk to me?
I feel like I have to...
dress it up a bit--
-Mm-hm. -[India] For you.
-Mm-hm. -[India] Um...
Dress it up so I will understand?
Or dress it up so I will not...
Yeah, dress it up so you'll understand.
Mm-hm.
[India] You know, from our scope.
Mm-hm.
Because there is still the layer of "I'm speaking to a
white woman right now, I need to address it in a certain way."
-Yeah. -But I wanna face it head-on.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I wanna talk to you, the white person, about it.
Yeah.
'Cause this is how we move forward--
-[Orna] Absolutely. -This is how we get better.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
[India] We just have to face the traumatic emotions head-on.
Right, strong feelings like...anger.
[India] Yeah, right!
And I think the difference between the two of us is he
doesn't-- you know, he does not want to acknowledge his
emotions.
Mm-hm.
He-- he talks about it briefly but,
you know, it's balled up, move on.
No, I've shared with you, you know,
the beginning stages of me starting a business and what
that was like being a Black man.
Yeah.
I mean, I had people coming to my office -- that was set up in
an office building -- asking me if I'm running a scam.
[sighs]
As feel as though I can either let it get me upset and bog me
down, or I can push through and make things happen.
I choose to push through and make things happen.
But there's some way that you deal with the emotional
implications of whatever we're talking about differently.
[Dale] Yeah.
And I think India is suggesting that you do some kind of
dissociation there, that you cut yourself off from that.
I-- I'm a li-- [sighs] I-- I'm always torn between that,
because it's like...
you know, what am I supposed to do with that,
you know?
Mm-hm.
It's like I'm here trying to just make a living for myself.
What am I supposed to do with that?
[Orna] Yeah.
I'm sorry. [sniffles]
Why are you sorry?
Well, the way I see it sometimes is that even the
acknowledgment is so taxing.
So...
I don't know, sometimes I choose just not to...
not to give validation to it...
and just...
But I just wanna understand; so when you say-- when you allow
yourself more contact with feelings...
[Dale] Mm-hm.
And you say, "What am I supposed to do with this?."..
what happens between the two of you?
Is there somewhere for that to go between the two of you?
Mm...
Well, I mean, well-- [laughs]
I would ask the question "What is she supposed to do with it?"
-Yeah. -You know?
It's-- it's...
Obviously, I have shared with her,
but I don't necessarily want a--
But do you get upset?
-In that moment? -[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Uh, no, no, not really. -He's just very matter-of-fact.
-No. -[chuckles]
Because...
first of all, that is, like, a great burden to carry on your
own, and even if you dissociate from it,
it's still there--
-[Dale] Yeah. -Weighing on you.
[Dale] Yeah.
So there's plenty of things that happen when you share it
with another person and you feel understood.
-Mm-hm. -It has this kind of...
miraculous...
power to transform very difficult feelings to something
that becomes useful.
Yeah.
And help the two of you deepen what you have together.
-Mm. -Yeah.
And it's-- and it's exactly what I yearn for from her at times:
to be more vulnerable.
-[Orna] Mm-hm. -Yeah.
[Orna] Yeah.
mellow folk music
[laughs]
[Orna VO] So I wanted to go back to gender.
I feel like there's this pattern with these men that are not as
expressive, and they attach themselves to very
expressive women.
[man VO] Mm-hm.
And they develop this somewhat-parasitic relationship
with these women...
[man] Mm-hm.
To keep doing that kind of work for them.
Mm.
[Orna] And I find that with, like, Josh and Molly.
Mm.
It's like constantly putting this kind of
gas nozzle into her--
[Eyal] He's actually feeding off her.
Yes.
And constantly inviting her to emote towards him,
whether by aggression or love or demands or...
But how about if we think about it as a child -- a baby boy --
and a mother, and the baby needs to feed.
So in that sense, it's not parasitic, it's survival.
Mm-hm.
But she's trying to get things from him, too.
[Orna] Yes.
And they're both stuck in a paradox;
she's asked to be the needy one who,
at the same time, provides...
and he, he needs-- he needs, but he cannot...
say it.
Yes.
And this dynamic drives her crazy.
[Eyal] Mm.
I got, for our family, like, a calendar -- a whiteboard
calendar -- so that we can really keep track,
'cause everyone's schedules is getting kinda crazy.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Molly] And so, everyone is a color, okay?
Nice.
So I said, "Magnolia, pick your color.
Vienna, pick your color," and then I said,
"Josh, pick your color.
You can be any color."
"I don't know, should I be green?"
-This is Josh speaking? -[Molly] Yes.
"I don't know, should I be blue?
This is hard; it's hard for me to pick a color,"
and I said, "I just need you to pick a color so that I can do
what I need to do for our family."
And then he said, "Fine, green."
And then, he excused himself to go downstairs.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And I went downstairs and I said,
"Are you okay?"
And he said, "I just-- I just needed a moment."
-Mm-hm. -[chuckles]
[Orna] You're laughing...?
It's-- it's a fucking dry eraser color.
Well, no, I actually think I said,
"I don't care, whatever color you want"
I think is what I said.
And you were like, "No, I want you to choose,"
and then I was like, "Uh..."
Because I don't wanna-- that's extra work for me that I don't
wanna have to do.
"Green or purple. I'm thinking green or purple."
He should just...
[Josh] But it's hard to choose between green and purple.
Why...can't...you...
make...a choice? [laughs]
Why?!
I mean, look where it got us when you couldn't make a
decision about whether we should have a third child or not.
Can you-- I mean, we can go back to the markers,
but can you fill me in on this?
We talked about if we should have a third child or not.
[Orna] Mm-hm. Who was saying what?
[Molly] I was saying I wanted to.
He was ambivalent but, as we've talked about it further,
was afraid to tell me no,
or afraid to say "We need more time to think about it."
He just didn't make a choice.
Wait, what-- what's-- tell me your version of the story.
Well, this is in-- this also is when I-- this is the-- when I
first got emotionally involved with this person about eight
years ago.
I think at that time, I was very confused about a lot of things,
and...
I've always worried about keeping...
you happy.
I think probably at the time, I knew it was something that was
important to you, so it didn't feel like my...
qu-- question mark about it was stronger than how you
were feeling.
[Molly] [sighs]
The one thing that I have asked for in our marriage that I have
said will make me happy...
is to talk with me about what he wants or what he thinks,
so that we can do things together.
I just want him to include me in his questions.
I don't need him to make a decision.
[sniffles] I just wanna be included.
But what you're asking for happens to be both difficult for
Josh but also--
But then he should-- then he shouldn't have stayed in this
marriage in the first place, because I've been asking for it
from the beginning!
Right, but the solution to that,
in your mind, is for Josh to--
[Molly] I don't know what the solution is!
I need he-- I want he--
I'm trying to talk to you.
[Molly] Okay.
Okay.
So you have a very clear, intense idea about what you
need, which is to say you want there not to be kind of a side
stream where Josh lives separately,
maybe in a somewhat-vague state, while trying to make you happy.
But the solution is not simply getting what you need.
Mm-hm.
The solution has partially to do with you understanding how
the intensity of your ask...
if affecting the feel between the two of you.
But when will it become a conversation of
"Okay, well...
but you have to look at the way that Molly engages in
conversation or what she needs," you know?
I just feel like... [sniffles]
Meaning that you're being asked to adjust to Josh's rhythm...
Yes!
[Orna] But you don't feel like Josh is getting any kind of
pressure to adjust to yours?
[Molly] Yes! [sniffles]
I do not know if Josh feels this feeling that he needs to make
changes, and the unfortunate thing is the way
that I have chosen...
to scream and yell at him that he needs to do some fucking work
himself has been by having my own relationships
with other people.
It's like my way of screaming at the top of my lungs!
[sniffles]
But the fact that you think that I haven't done anything,
that I haven't done any work or grown at all,
first of all--
But I have asked repeatedly the same thing,
and it ha-- and every single time we get to sit on a couch,
and I need to understand who you are and how you're sensitive and
this and that--
That's not-- that's not true. That's not a fair statement.
[Orna] Can I interrupt?
Because what I feel like I'm doing with the two of you right
now is actually putting pressure on Josh to...
articulate yourself much more clearly and to understand how
you're...
thriving by relying on Molly's...
intensity.
I guarantee you he does not see it that way,
and until you just said that, he did not realize that you were
putting pressure on him to think that.
I guarantee you.
He is thinking, "Okay, she understands me,
she really sees my authentic self,
and my authentic self is who I am,
and to change that would be unauthentic!
She's not asking me to look at that and change it,
she's really understanding it, and now,
I get to say, 'See? This is who I am.
It's hard for me to make choices or blah-blah-blah-blah-blah,'
and I'm not supposed to not be my authentic self."
Guarantee it.
Would you like to...respond to that?
Is that what's going on?
No.
No, it seemed very clear to me at the beginning that you were
pressuring-- asking Molly not to talk and continuing to ask me to
go to-- to...
try and figure out what was going on.
Granted, this is something that happened eight years ago,
and since then...
we've made a lot of tough choices together,
as a couple.
Together, we've made choices.
Josh, I was in a relationship for five years with someone
else, and a year and a half ago, I was in a relationship with an
ex-girlfriend.
I am still screaming.
Yeah, but fuck that, and fuck that to say that, like...
I mean, the way you're just saying it is like if I had done
something, you wouldn't have done those things.
That's not what I'm saying!
And that some-- and that somehow,
if I had just gotten it right--
No! I'm not--
You wouldn't have done those things.
That's exactly what it sounds like!
It's not about getting it right!
There's not a right--
"I'm screaming at you to do what I'm asking you to do.
Do it the way I want you to do it,
I've be screaming--"
[Molly] What am I asking you to do?
Really? Is this really an interrogation?
-Is that how we're gonna do it? -No, Josh!
I'm not--
Where you're leading me down the path to get me to the--
-I'm not interrogating you-- -Answer that you're hoping for?
No, I'm not interrogating you--
[Josh] It feels like it, it feels like it.
I'm trying to see if you can repeat what I have been asking
for years.
I could have been more present, I could have talked to you more
about all the things that I was feeling,
about the questions I was having, about--
So why isn't that happening now?
It...is...happening...now!
It hasn't happened for the past week.
But we've been talking so much more deeply about
everything for...
It-- it is happening!
What do you mean it's not happening?!
[Molly] [sniffles]
I am, like, so bothered right now that you're sitting there
like that with this attitude that,
like, I am being ridiculous and that I'm interrogating you,
when all I am saying to you is I don't think...
that you have been doing...
the work that you say you have!
[Orna] Okay, we're gonna have to stop 'cause we've run
out of time.
And hopefully, we can pick up from here.
Yeah.
"after it all blew over" by otta
[sniffles]
[door slides open]
[Josh] Thank you.
[Molly] Thank you.
After it all blew over